Should have been done differently!!

[7lazy8]

Have you even listened to a song, ( or a whole album for that matter),  and ask, What were they thinking?

Do you ever hear a song and say, "That sounds like crap! The drums just ruin the song."  What songs do you think should have been played differntly?  ....too many fills? ( or too few)....too many crashes?... too much @$%# hi hat?  Also, what songs were over produced? (ahem, Def Leppard)

[Ignatz]

How dare you critique the production skills of the mighty Mutt Lange!  :-D  

I can think of some horrible production jobs, a few of which are almost excusable (pioneer punk label SST's releases are all waaaaay trebly, but hey, it was DIY, right?), some aren't (I've always thought Prince's "Little Red Corvette" sounds like it was recorded in a closet with a compressor on maximum), but when it comes to drums ruining a song by themselves....hmmm...sometimes Steve Lillywhite could overdo it in the 80's (he was known for his big drum sounds, which had a tendancy to overpower everything else).  The infamous "echoey snare drum" sound that is featured on almost every hit 80's song is another thing that makes me wince...I don't know how they got every snare drum on earth to sound the same from 1983-1988, but when I hear records from that era, it seems to have been somehow miraculously achieved!  

I also have a tendancy to dislike any song that has a drum solo lasting longer than thirty seconds, but if you're into prog rock you might feel very differently about *that* issue.  ;-)    

[7lazy8]

FINALLY....someone who agrees with me about the 80's drum sound.

I don't know how the heck they did that, but it was tacky for sure.

[Joe]

I don't know how the heck they did that [eighties sound]...

There's some speculation in this  http://community.drummercafe.com/index.php?board=10;action=display;threadid=13161]current thread .  Also, a recent "70s sound" thread discussed a couple of applicable details such as the use of O-rings, wallets on the drumhead, low-tuned Supraphonics, etc., etc.

You might also be interested in this very old thread I dug up, which I started about snare drum sounds.  It also includes some insight upon the "signature" sound of the song as a whole.

I used to have a few songs that I disliked because of production, sounds, and like thatâ€"pieces such as "New Kid In Town" as cited in my link, and I think I cited "Rock With You" by Michael Jackson, also for the snare drum sound, in a thread subsequent to that which is linked.

But, my mind has opened considerably since then, and I accept sounds and songs as they areâ€"without regard to my preferences.

[Dave Heim]

I have the Fun House LP by Iggy Pop and the Stooges, which I picked up back in the day.  I've tried listening to it all the way through, really I have.  I just can't do it.  It sounds like noise to me.

This album makes Yoko Ono sound like. . .  well, wait.  No it doesn't.   She still sounds bad, too.

[Steve Phelps (Shoeless)]

The infamous "echoey snare drum" sound that is featured on almost every hit 80's song is another thing that makes me wince...I don't know how they got every snare drum on earth to sound the same from 1983-1988, but when I hear records from that era, it seems to have been somehow miraculously achieved!  
   

And you know who we have to thank for that big gated snare sound? Phil Collins

[7lazy8]

THANKS A LOT PHIL!! >:(

[7lazy8]

There were two albums that I had in mind when I started this thread.  The last two albums by RHCP:
Californication and By the Way.  The drums just sound so weak and hollow, I CAN'T STAND IT.  Both albums would have sounded better with a fuller drum sound, IMO.

[IncuDrummer]

(ahem, Def Leppard)

for god sakes the man has one arm!

*edit* i'm bronze!!!!!!!!!!

[Andrew]

He had both when they recorded Pyromania, but he didn't actually get to play on that album - the drums were all programmed. An irony and a shame, really.

Some punk label needs to kidnap Leonard Cohen for a couple weeks and make the man re-record his entire catalogue. His songwriting is great, but his albums are tragically overproduced.

The studio recording of "I Want You to Want Me" defines overproduction. WEAK.

[galacticjocko]

FINALLY....someone who agrees with me about the 80's drum sound.

I don't know how the heck they did that, but it was tacky for sure.

I agree!  Amen and again!



Although people really rave about it, I don't really like the super-triggered bass drums like As I Lay Dying -- "Frail Words Collapse" and Aletheian -- "Apolutrosis".  Argh, the tinnyness!

[IncuDrummer]

The studio recording of "I Want You to Want Me" defines overproduction. WEAK.

haha so true

[7lazy8]

haha so true

I hate the live recording too!  Just an annoying song altogether

[7lazy8]

I have another gripe.  I cannot stand the drummer for Lenny Kravitz.  Don't know her name but I just wonder why he keeps her around.  Her sound is just so "trashy" and bland.  Sure, she can keep a beat but I think Lenny would sound a lot better with more color and a little rhythmic complexity.  Every song is just straight 8ths on the hihat.  I'm not saying that she should do one constant drum solo, but I think that in this case, less is, well.....less.

[Floyd42]

I cannot stand the drummer for Lenny Kravitz.  Don't know her name but I just wonder why he keeps her around.  Her sound is just so "trashy" and bland.  Sure, she can keep a beat but I think Lenny would sound a lot better with more color and a little rhythmic complexity.  Every song is just straight 8ths on the hihat.  I'm not saying that she should do one constant drum solo, but I think that in this case, less is, well.....less.

http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Cindy_Blackman.html]Cindy Blackman  is a great drummer in my opinion. Maybe her playing with Lenny is a bit straight ahead, but maybe check other recordings she has done. IMHO, she grooves !

[Stewart Manley]

http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Cindy_Blackman.html]Cindy Blackman  is a great drummer in my opinion. Maybe her playing with Lenny is a bit straight ahead, but maybe check other recordings she has done. IMHO, she grooves !

She does.

Worth mentioning that Kravitz himself typically plays the drums in the studio - Blackman (and more recently Zoro) joins him on the road.

[7lazy8]

If you guys could give me suggestions on where else I could hear Cindy's work, I'll greatly consider recanting what I said before.   Please keep the suggestions fairly mainstream though.  I don't want to have to search every obscure record shop in town.

[7lazy8]

And setting Cindy aside for a moment...
I feel that I could get into Lenny so much more if a the drums were little funkier and somewhat more complex.  I think his bassist is amazing and deserves better drum accompaniment.  
I've only heard a couple of his albums...am I just missing something?

[ritarocks]

He had both when they recorded Pyromania, but he didn't actually get to play on that album - the drums were all programmed. An irony and a shame, really.

wtf?   >:(Haven't you ever seen the video for Rock of Ages or Foolin' or Photograph?  The drums were not programmed.  This can not be true.  Where did you get this information that all the drums were programmed?  Objection, your honor---speculation.  


Also, Cindy Blackman is an accomplished jazz musician and would probably kick most people's asses behind a kit.

[ritarocks]

Furthermore, while I look back on the gated sound, its not my favorite, but it was just a part of that electronic period that musicians were experimenting with/exploring---part of the times and something new.

[7lazy8]

wtf?  Haven't you ever seen the video for Rock of Ages or Foolin' or Photograph?  The drums were not programmed.  This can not be true.  Where did you get this information that all the drums were programmed?  Objection, your honor---speculation.  

I don't have enough info to confirm anything about this subject, but don't get F-F-F-Fooled...just because the videos showed real drums, doesn't mean the song did.

[Stewart Manley]

If you guys could give me suggestions on where else I could hear Cindy's work...

How about  http://community.drummercafe.com/index.php?board=9;action=display;threadid=9871;start=msg114762#top]right here ?

[psycht]

here are some clips of her as well:

http://www.drummerworld.com/drummers/Cindy_Blackman.html

[KevinD]

wtf?   >:(Haven't you ever seen the video for Rock of Ages or Foolin' or Photograph?  The drums were not programmed.  This can not be true.  Where did you get this information that all the drums were programmed?  Objection, your honor---speculation.  

I don't think the video has anything to do with what was on the album.

According to the VH1 "Behind the Music" and another special which I believe was titled "Making of the perfect album" or something along those lines. The boys were partying a bit too much to the point where Rick really wasn't up to playing on the studio tracks. In fact  a incident is discussed where Rick was in the sutdio and he thought he was recording but they didn't hit the button. They didn't want to tell him about it.

I believe Mutt Lange programmed the drums.

By the way in those pre-accident videos Rick is playing traditional grip and his left hand looks pretty good, nice strong stroke.  

I understand he studied with Joe Morello after his accident. Maybe Plowboy has some insight to that period?

[Gregg Rivers]

That snare sound did very well for it's time (the 80's) People dug it then! The fact that Def Leppard sold 2 MILLION copies of High and Dry alone is pretty much proof that people liked what they heard! You may not like it, but that doesn't mean it sucks.
I don't like the snare sound on U2's "Sunday Bloody Sunday" I'd rather listen to fingernails on a chalkboard than that snare sound! But the record was a hit and it too helped launch that band into the super stardom they enjoy today. It's all relevant to the individual. I HATE almost all Rap and Hip Hop, but I can't deny it's success. Get my point? ;)

[7lazy8]

Yes these are my opinions, but this whole discussion board is infested with 'em. I've always been on the fence about 80's rock.  I know some people got sick of the flashy guitar solos and such, but i've always liked that.

I don't think Def Leps success had much to do with their sound.  It had more to do with the fact that the chicks dug the bulges in their spandex pants.  ::)  J/K, mostly.

As far as U2 goes, I've never really liked their sound.  I was always just so weak and shallow to me.  I think U2 is known more for their social agenda, at least for me!  ;)

[Gregg Rivers]

I would argue that both bands are known for catchy beats and melodic hooks. They're known for their hit songs. I say that because I've seen the auditorium tests that people respond to for radio stations. You play a 10 second segment of the song and the people in the test respond in a positive or negative way via a simple dial. It's the music and ,melody that catches the individual first. Later the lyrics. Do you know what Sunday Bloody Sunday is about? If you do, ask your neighbor if he or she knows. Most folks don't, they just dig the "tune". ;)

[Ignatz]

Steve Lillywhite was the producer on "War", so naturally it's the album where Larry Mullen's drums shine the most.  While not one of my favorite songs, "Sunday Bloody Sunday" at least has a very recognizable drum intro, something more songs could certainly use. :)  

[mediablamer]

It's easy to diss the 80's overprocessed snare sound. I used to be a member of that camp. Then it started growing on me. Now I love it.

Please do not stone me as a heretic for saying the following:

The Moby Dick drum solo sounds like a school bus struggling to shift gears as it tries to drive up a hill. On many songs, John Bonham's power interferes with the overall musical feel that the rest of the musicians are producing.

[KevinD]

I don't think Def Leps success had much to do with their sound.  It had more to do with the fact that the chicks dug the bulges in their spandex pants.  ::)  J/K, mostly.

There are many things that contributed to their huge success, yeah, they were young kids and certainly had the Tiger Beat appeal but they had something musically as well. I think the largest factor in their success was the man who refined (or maybe defineed) their sound.

Their first EP and later album ("On Through the Night") showed some promise but once they got with Mutt Lange and he started directing their sound, everything really started to come together musically for them. Lange has the golden touch, which is characterized by the slick production sound, large soudning, but simple drum beats and very catchy song writing.

One can't argue with the success that Foreigner, AC/DC, XTC, The Outlaws, The Cars, Bryan Adams and more.

A further testament to his...if not genius, impeccable ear for what works, is the success of his wife's albums.

Would Def Leppard have been as successful without Lange or a similarly gifted producer? Probably not the mega starts they were but I'm sure they would have earned a footnote on the level with Foghat or similar band.

[Scheming Demon]

Being a fan of progressive rock and metal you would think there is no such thing as overplaying in my vocabulary.

However, when I hear that word the first song that comes to my mind is Lucky Man by ELP.  There are just fills all over the place to a fairly simple, poppy (at least for ELP) song.

The bigger however, is that it was a hit song for them.  So what the hell do I know?  If played differently maybe it wouldn't have been the hit it was, we'll never know.