Limitations of not being a full-time drummer?

[Adam_]

I'm in my senior year of high school right now -- the point in my life where I'm trying to figure out where to go to college, what to do with the rest of my life, etc, etc.

I'm passionate about music, but I don't plan to pursue drumming as a career. However, I don't intend on ever giving it up.

I plan on majoring in computer science and pursuing that as a career, since I've enjoyed computers longer than I have music. At this point in time, I plan on working in computers once I'm out of college, but how will this affect time I can devote to music?

It seems a lot of people who visit here have jobs unrelated to music, but are still highly active in the music scene. It seems that there are a lot who have needed to go into another career in order to support themselves, because drumming wasn't doing this. What I'm asking is, how will placing drumming as a lower priority affect my drumming, as opposed to being a full-time, professional drummer? Can I still be successful? Will I still have the chance to "make it big"?

[BBJones]

As a fellow "computer career" person that is also a drummer I can certainly relate.

No reason why you can't keep drumming serious and as a high priority in your life regardless of what you do to earn money.  However, depending on what type of job you end up getting, that may change.

For me, my job can be extremely stressful or keep me from my drums for days or maybe even weeks at a time.  In the IT industry, it is not unusual to get stuck working stupid long hours sometimes, and worse if you own your own company (in any industry).

I would think as long as you are dilligent and dedicated to your drumming you will always have a chance to "make it".  But like anything, your chances of success (however you want to define it) increases with the more effort you put into it.

I'm currently working towards yet another crossroad in my life between drumming and my "job".  I guess my point is that you don't need to decide right now what you plan on doing as a drummer for the rest of your life.  You will always have the opportunity to change your mind later.

Just keep practicing! :)

[Mark Schlipper]

you will always have a chance to "make it".  But like anything, your chances of success (however you want to define it) increases with the more effort you put into it.

Yeah ... that pretty much sums it up.    

[Falcao]

I graduated from Advertising school cause my parents always told me I should have a "parallel" activity. For me that turned out to be the biggest @$%#. I'm teliing you my experience, not trying to tell you what to do. I had already recorded two full lengh albums with a band At 24 I realized there was nothing else more important in my life then music. So I decided to become professional and since then (I'm 27) I'm amazed of how much there is to learn. The more I learn, the more there is to learn. My life is great in that sense. It's very hard work but at least I don't have any doubts and that's a big relief.

In Sum: There are tons of very competent people in any career. But you gotta nail you choices down. Like a magnifying glass in the sun. If it stays in one spot it will catch fire.

[David Jung]

Just remember the choices you make now can (will) color and influence where you are later in life...for bettor or worse.  Some decisions are easier to recover from than others.  The limitation I've experienced not playing full time is I feel like I'm years & years behind in building and learning skills...things that you'd think someone playing drums for 30 years could do easily require significant effort.  But calendar-time doesn't equate to clock-time...is that 30 years of experience really 30 years or is it just the same 5 years repeated 6 times?

I passed on a music scholarship to the Univ of Mo in 1977 thinking I wanted to be an aerospace engineer.  A year later I switched to computer science and changed schools.  About a year after that I had just about decided to switch to music, but I didn't really want to spend the rest of my life playing in cheap bars. :)  Instead, I ended up in a decent band (that didn't play bars) and we played together while I finished school, got married, and went for a MBA.

At that point, work and family took over and drumming pretty much came to a halt for a number of years.  Now I'm back into drumming...probably more seriously than I've ever been in my life before.

Now I'm trying to figure out where I go from here....

--David

[Mister Acrolite]

I graduated from Advertising school cause my parents always told me I should have a "parallel" activity. For me that turned out to be the biggest BS.

Falcao, unless you are extremely lucky (and rare) you will hit times where it is VERY hard to support yourself with music. You may find years or decades from now that the economic limitations of a music career are too confining, and you will be VERY glad to have a background that enables you to work outside of music.

I'm 44, and found myself in my late 30's doing menial jobs for crappy money, driving trucks, working loading docks, etc. to make ends meet, simply because I lacked any other marketable skill. While you may not mind living hand-to-mouth at 24, you may find 20 years changes that attitude.

My parents tried to convince me the same thing yours did, but I rebelled. I got a degree in MUSIC. Later in life, I paid the price - I couldn't get a job anywhere for any kind of real money, because I lacked any background outside of music. I went back to school in my late 30's and was able to eventually get into far more lucrative work, and a much more stable life for me and my family, AND I still play drums professionally.

It doesn't have to be all or nothing, trust me. And I MANY times wished that I had taken my parents' advice, so I could have had better jobs during the lean times that are inevitable in any musician's career.

Maybe you'll never use what you learned in college. But I very much believe that one day you'll be darn glad you have that diploma!

[Falcao]

Sorry I don't believe that and I certainly don't rely on luck on my music career. I believe if if you really want, you can and you will. I'm glad I got my diploma, it's helping me get the immigration visa to another country I want. I live music 24h a day. When I get bored of drumming I write my own songs. Not giving up is a huge part of being a musician. Sometimes if feels you are comiting suicide, but your soul somehow tells you not to give up. ALL successful musicians today earned it by working really hard. Luck is a bonus, you can't rely on that. You have to believe and picture yourself in the shows you want to be doing in the future, the bands you want to play with. There is no place for second thoughts if you really love it.

thanks for the advice thou : )  

[Mister Acrolite]

Okay, this is not a well-thought out philosophy, but sort of a "if I knew then what I know now" perspective. If I were to advise a serious young drummer who thought they wanted to play for a living, I'd suggest the following:

1. Start gigging NOW. No matter how old you are. Not in garage bands, but in bands that pay. Bands where playing is a JOB. When I was 14, I was playing weddings, bar mitzvahs, night clubs, orchestra pit gigs, etc. I advise this so that as early as possible, you get a taste for what it's like to have this art form also be your job.

2. Go to college. Go to the biggest, meanest, most competitive music school you can afford. Major in music, but do a double major. For your second major, pick a profession that pays well. Not English literature or basket-weaving, but something like business, engineering, computer science, etc. It will only take you maybe a year to a year and a half longer if you plan it right, and you'll come out with TWO degrees.

3. While you're in college, gig like crazy. Sleep when you're old. And remember, practicing is not gigging. You'll practice a lot, too, but you need to continue to get out there and PLAY.

4. When you graduate, get out and gig fulltime. Go on the road, on a cruise ship, move to a town with an active nightclub scene, go to Vegas, whatever. But PLAY. Do it for a living, learning the ups and downs of the lifestyle, and learning the unspoken lessons that can only be learned onstage. Do this for, say, five years.

5. Evaluate your life. Are you digging it? Are you getting anywhere? Can you compete with the people who have the gigs you wish you had? Can you handle the instability, the poverty, the sacrifice, the ruined relationships this life brings with it? If so, continue. If not, think about re-aligning your goals.

At this point, your education is still fresh enough to be pertinent. You could even take online classes while you're on the road, to stay on top of your "plan B" profession. Maybe you can combine your professional skills with your musical skills, and find a place where you can do both. That can be a beautiful thing.

Or you may find you want to step away from the chore of HAVING to play for a living. You may throw yourself into a non-musical career, and play strictly for fun. That can be a beautiful thing, too. Or you may be loving the life of a pro drummer, and keep pursuing it fulltime. That's great too. I will say this: there's a point of diminishing returns. I can't say that I was learning anything new about music by playing 5 nights a week in a bar band, after I'd already done that for nearly 20 years, for roughly the same nightly pay. At 25, I was still learning a lot, but at 35, I don't know how much I was getting out of each rendition of "Born to be Wild." That's why I suggested the 5-year plan.

I DO think an aspiring pro should spend SOME of their life playing fulltime. There's a confidence, a self-assurance, an understanding of how to keep the show going no matter what, that ONLY comes from experience. And drumming is so physical, that there's nothing like years of fulltime focus to teach your muscle memory what to do.

But it doesn't have to be the ONLY thing you know how to do for the rest of your life. I lived most of my life with tunnel vision, thinking that any energy I devoted to something other than drumming would only hurt my drumming. So I limited myself, and really couldn't do much of anything else, despite being fairly intelligent and having a college degree.

As I've said, I hit some very lean times when I had to supplement my income - every pro I know has had to do this. But I was SO limited as to what I could do to supplement mine, it really kept me down, both economically and emotionally. That's when I REALLY wished I had an education in something more than just music. So I went back and got some.

But it's a hell of a lot easier to get that education when you're 20 than when you're pushing 40.

I'm happy now - I've got a great gig, which I balance with a great "real" job. I'm playing better than ever, and I actually have health insurance now (one of the first things to go when you're poor and self-employed). So I have no complaints. But my 30's could have been a LOT less stressful if I had followed the after-the-fact advice I offer here.

Hope this is helpful.

[JamesC]

I really enjoy Mr. A's thoughts on this subject.  He clearly has quite a bit of life experience in music.

Is it possible to make it big?  Sure it is.  But I can't help looking at these things from more of a statistical point of view.  Like how many guys who are working their tails off are able to make a decent living at it (i.e. your car payments are made on time, you can buy a home, women over age 19 will date you, etc.)  1 in 10?  1 in 100?  How many make it "big"... 1 in 5,000?  1 in 10,000?

I personally know a couple drummers who are mind-blowing good.  Neither of them have been able to support themselves decently with drumming.

My vote: Go to college.  Get that computer science degree.  Play drums too.

[funmachine]

I started out playing 6 and even 7 nights a week, then luckily it was 5 nights, then 4, then 3, 2, 1....now twice a month maybe.   Full-time music joints we just don't have here any more.  When you play every night you really live the music, but I found the fewer nights I played, the more my attention drifted to other things.   I went back to school in my 30s and supported myself with music, but I will never catch up with my peers who went into the real world earlier in life.   But I can at least support myself now.   I do know a couple other muzos who never retooled--they're great players but they're living hand to mouth and it's not a pretty sight at 50+.  

You may find there are periods when you won't be able to play as much or even practice, but hang in there and don't get depressed about it.  Job demands wax and wane, and often you can work things around so that you can pursue music again.

[BigBillInBoston]

If I were to advise a serious young drummer who thought they wanted to play for a living, I'd suggest the following:

Wow  :). Beautifully written and full of hard-earned knowledge. I really enjoyed your comments in this post. Guess we know why one of your other avocations is writing. How's the novel coming? ...It was a dark and stormy night. My acrolite snare had mysteriously disappeared during the powerage caused my the sudden storm when... ;)

BigBill

[ritarocks]

Great stuff Mr. A.  In addition, I would recommend hitting lots of open mic nights where you can gain the experience of winging it on the spur of the moment, as well as really learning to watch the other players and bring it to an end together, learn to feel it, etc. even when you don't know the song.

[BigBillInBoston]

Is it possible to make it big?  Sure it is.  But I can't help looking at these things from more of a statistical point of view.  Like how many guys who are working their tails off are able to make a decent living at it (i.e. your car payments are made on time, you can buy a home, women over age 19 will date you, etc.)  1 in 10?  1 in 100?  How many make it "big"... 1 in 5,000?  1 in 10,000?

That was me  ;). Majored in Computer Science and statistics (while playing actively in school sponsored and outside groups). My statistical bent quickly helped me figure out that the "odds" were against me making it big enough to support myslf solely as a musician. So, made it into my primary avocation  :).

Having said that, I grew-up with several guys who have "made it" sucessfully by combining their performing skills with music education and they feel they've had very rewarding careers at both.

BigBill

[Nubert Thump]

Great advice Mr. A.  I hope it will not be wasted on us older drummers who have already learned it the hard way. I went back to school at 33 and made a big career change. It wasn't easy. >:(

I have a buddy(guitar player) who is in his 50s and even though he played with John Lennon in the 1970's is struggling now. Between gigs he uses his band van to move things for $$. He is so desperate to get paying work he will, as he likes to put it, shovel $hit! He always says that I was the 'smart' one for going back to school so as to get a real job. Insurance? He can't afford health insurance and if he gets any kind of serious illnes he would have to go on public assistance. It is a very sad situation. BTW, he is a great performer and has never soured on playing is just always desperate for money.

[Tony]

As usual, Mr. A has some good thoughts.  But think about the things that we were told at 18-25 years old by people like Keith.  We brushed it off because what the hell do old guys like that know?  The music industry is fresh and cutting edge, old dudes that played for dinasaur rock bands aren't "in tune" with today's scene.  My parents don't know anything, anyone over 30 doesn't know what it's like to be a young adult in today's society, etc.etc.etc.  Pick your cliche.

When I see people make statements like:

Sorry I don't believe that and I certainly don't rely on luck on my music career. I believe if if you really want, you can and you will.

I have to wonder.   ::)

Luck doesn't play a part in it?  OK, well, maybe where you live.  My experience has simply been the drummers who are skilled, have a  rational approach to the business of music and are lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time have a chance of being successful.

For every musician who is signed and makes a living, there are thousands who are equally talented, and equally adapt at business practices,  who are waiting tables, designing web sites, or even working as cops, nurses or Doctors.    

[felix]

You ought to start a thread on the limitations of BEING a full time drummer- *yeah I toured with justin timberlake last year, man was that rough*

THat would be cool for some guys I bet but I would get bored fast.  It would be "old hat" after a year or two I'm sure.  YMMV

I have to tell ya, last summer I played a week straight and it about killed me, even at age 36.

I can't imagine schlepping my drums and driving/flying all the time ALL THE TIME.  It would beat the tar out of me.

[BBJones]

Luck doesn't play a part in it?  OK, well, maybe where you live.  My experience has simply been the drummers who are skilled, have a  rational approach to the business of music and are lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time have a chance of being successful.

For every musician who is signed and makes a living, there are thousands who are equally talented, and equally adapt at business practices,  who are waiting tables, designing web sites, or even working as cops, nurses or Doctors.    

I'm no music pro but I would have to disagree.

Yes there are many equally talented and business savvy people in all industries, but it isn't luck that makes certain people successful for the most part, it's hard work and determination.  As well as being willing to do some things that other's won't or aren't able to (like eat plain rice for 6 months or travel for 3 days for one show etc).

I know plenty of skilled people in all types of everything, but only the people that work really hard (and I mean REALLY hard) actually stand up above the rest.

I would say luck plays a role about 1% of the time.  I base my opinion on what I do for my business and how hard I have had to work and the sacrifices I've made to be where I am.  Nothing, and I mean NOTHING to do with luck :)

I don't see why it's any different for any other job... like being a musician.

[Mister Acrolite]

I'm no music pro but I would have to disagree.

Yes there are many equally talented and business savvy people in all industries, but it isn't luck that makes certain people successful for the most part, it's hard work and determination.  As well as being willing to do some things that other's won't or aren't able to (like eat plain rice for 6 months or travel for 3 days for one show etc).

I know plenty of skilled people in all types of everything, but only the people that work really hard (and I mean REALLY hard) actually stand up above the rest.

I would say luck plays a role about 1% of the time.  I base my opinion on what I do for my business and how hard I have had to work and the sacrifices I've made to be where I am.  Nothing, and I mean NOTHING to do with luck :)

I don't see why it's any different for any other job... like being a musician.

Your first sentence said it all. You don't do this for a living.

Sorry, but unless you've walked in these shoes, you don't know how different this is from other lines of work.

Ask a working professional musician, particularly a successful one, if luck has anything to do success. I'll be astounded if the answer is not a unanimous YES.

Hard work, struggle, sacrifice, desire - all those are needed. That's a given. But while they are requirements for success, they are not a guarantee. Trust me.

[ritarocks]

What I'm asking is, how will placing drumming as a lower priority affect my drumming, as opposed to being a full-time, professional drummer?

Placing it on a "lower" priority will definitely affect it.  There's a big difference between people who play once in a while and people who play all the time.  For the first time in years, I've sacrificed every bit of my time for school.  And every one of those minutes is a minute lost without drumming, as far as I'm concerned.  Im rustier than ever as result.  Does that mean I say don't go to school?  Absolutely not.  But if you want to be a professional drummer, then that should be an equal goal that gets the necessary time put into it, not a "lower" goal.   Because its true...use it or lose it.  

[Bob Pettit]

Quote Mr. A.
"Ask a working professional musician, particularly a successful one, if luck has anything to do success. I'll be astounded if the answer is not a unanimous YES.

Hard work, struggle, sacrifice, desire - all those are needed. That's a given. But while they are requirements for success, they are not a guarantee. Trust me. "


Mr. A. is right on. The Drum Mag interviews always have the guys saying how lucky they are. Talented yeah, but lucky too. Steve Gadd says he's lucky. Steve Gadd says he's lucky!?

So for me, the essential question was: Do you follow your heart, or do what's smart?

Personally, I followed my heart.

I remember laying in bed wrestling with my future, wondering if I should study engineering or music. When I thought of a career in music I felt sparks deep inside, and that is what drove me. So, I studied music in college and focused intensely on the drums. I worked hard.

I ended up playing professionally in top 40 bands.  There were a lot of clubs then that ran music 6-7 nights a week and you could make a living at it if you had a good agent. It was a blast, while it lasted.

Now-a-days most of the clubs are gone, and the one that are there have a different band every night of the week. It don't pay.

I ended up driving cab, pulling chain, playing drums more on weekends. I stayed mobile, no kids, still dreaming for a break, dreaming for luck.

Then I had a 'day job' that really was a 'night job' that kept me from playing for a while and I got out of practice. Funny, Rita is right, it's a skill you lose if you don't use it.

I had followed my heart. I chose my path. I excepted my fate.

BUT I GOT LUCKY.  :)

I had the chance to go back to school and earned an engineering degree.  

Now I have the best of both worlds; I play a lot with my blues band on weekends, and I have a stable job I really dig.

But, I've been practicing, my double bass is kicking a$$, my sticks are twirling, and I'm working stuff up. If any young hard punkers destined for the BIG TIME need a 50 year old slammer, I'll be the one.  8)

[john]

All the musical knowledge in the world takes a back seat to being in the right place at the right time.  

The music business is a who-you-know- game; given that any two drummers can be virtuosi, the determining factor in terms of which one gets the "break" will be a question of personality/chemistry, or some similar non-tangible. A degree in music is a piece of paper that unfortunately doesn't carry more than it's own weight.

At the top of the art form, the world of session drumming is the definitive of who you know.

But, as Ellington said: "If you can play, just keep playing - someone will eventually hear you."

[windhorse]

What I'm asking is, how will placing drumming as a lower priority affect my drumming, as opposed to being a full-time, professional drummer? Can I still be successful? Will I still have the chance to "make it big"?

Yeah, I remember back when I was a senior, and pretty much flying by the seat my pants. I wasn't like you and thinking about the future, asking good questions of people I respected. You sound like a level headed guy!  ;)
That's good!

my 2cents:
Don't do things because of an expectation. If you're doing it to become famous, rich, or important,, then you might get it, but then you've started a never ending trap where you're always trying to achieve something and never allowing time for the enjoyment.
Most of these guys said "go with your heart", and that's the best advice.
Do what feels right, and resonates your soul.
You can't go wrong.
Maybe drumming won't end up being part of it, maybe it will, but your heart won't lie.

[Tony]

I'm no music pro but I would have to disagree.

Yes there are many equally talented and business savvy people in all industries, but it isn't luck that makes certain people successful for the most part, it's hard work and determination.  As well as being willing to do some things that other's won't or aren't able to (like eat plain rice for 6 months or travel for 3 days for one show etc).

I know plenty of skilled people in all types of everything, but only the people that work really hard (and I mean REALLY hard) actually stand up above the rest.

I would say luck plays a role about 1% of the time.  I base my opinion on what I do for my business and how hard I have had to work and the sacrifices I've made to be where I am.  Nothing, and I mean NOTHING to do with luck :)

I don't see why it's any different for any other job... like being a musician.

Well, it's a given that hard work and determination are essential to being successful.  I've never seen anyone who didn't have the necessary skills become successful, over a long term, just by being lucky.  That goes for all types of jobs, muscial or otherwise.

To ignore the luck factor is a mistake, IMHO.  You can't always control all factors.

[marker]

At your age, you have time.  Go for it if you really want to.  Work as hard as you can at it, give it all you've got.  At this point, you have little to lose.

If it looks like you're not going to really make it (this happens to most), you'll need some other way to make a living.  So, keep doing the things that will make that a good deal.  A serious effort to get ready for most other jobs will have a much better payoff in the cash department.

You'll probably end up being a weekend warrior with a day job and the wife and kids, etc.  But, while you're young, take your shot.  There's always an offchance that you'll make it.

[adam]

I'd go to college. Just be sure to get as much financial aid as humanly possible so if you decide to continue playing drums post-college, you won't have much debt following you around.

Also, if you go to college and become whatever, you can always be a musician as long as you keep writing music. Right now I am a freshmen in college and I have a lot of free time to put some stuff together. The only thing I regret is not being able to play my kit, although I do have a practice pad and a guitar here. You might want to invest in a electronic kit so you can keep practicing without disturbing your neighbors too (assuming you live there.)

[Adam_]

1. Start gigging NOW. No matter how old you are. Not in garage bands, but in bands that pay. Bands where playing is a JOB. When I was 14, I was playing weddings, bar mitzvahs, night clubs, orchestra pit gigs, etc. I advise this so that as early as possible, you get a taste for what it's like to have this art form also be your job.

I'm 17 years old; what is expected of me as a drummer in a pro band? What equipment do I need, what type of music do I need to know, which songs do I need to know, etc...? Can I still play at bars and night clubs if I'm a minor?

What's the best way to gig often? Stick with a certain band, sit-in for other drummers, etc...?

I want to gig, bad. I guess I don't really know where to start.

[Bob Pettit]

Adam,
I started when I was 16 playing old standards like "Mack The Knife" with a heavy set lady piano player / singer. There was also a string bass and a sax player. My highschool band teacher had recommended me.

I had to go into the kitchen on breaks cause they wouldn't let me hang in bar.

I don't know how you can go out and get a gig, it just  happens. Hang out with musicians wherever they're playing, check the under twenty one clubs, music stores, the bill boards, and weekly newspapers. A lot of dance halls will have punk-o-rama night with 6-7 bands. Go hang and get to know them.

Better bands will be working with an agent and have gigs already lined up. Those are the serious ones and you may have to come in and play it cold. For that reason you've got to have done your woodshedding, and be ready to play authentically in their style. Listen and practice to as much music as possible.

Good luck!  :)

[Mister Acrolite]

I'm 17 years old; what is expected of me as a drummer in a pro band? What equipment do I need, what type of music do I need to know, which songs do I need to know, etc...? Can I still play at bars and night clubs if I'm a minor?

What's the best way to gig often? Stick with a certain band, sit-in for other drummers, etc...?

I want to gig, bad. I guess I don't really know where to start.

It depends on what's happening musically in your area. At your age I was working most weekends in a wedding band, I was playing in the orchestra pit for theatrical productions, occasionally playing a bar gig, subbing for other pro drummers I'd befriended, etc. I joined the musician's union at 14, if I remember correctly. My band director in high school had his own professional group, and he'd use me occasionally, and he passed my name on to other working pros.

Learn your local scene, and look for your place within it. Pay attention to what songs they play, and learn them. Find out who the working pros are - maybe through the local union, or by checking to see where the local drum teachers can be found gigging. Get to know as many pros (all instruments, not just drummers) as you can. Find out if you can get away with working in clubs. Also, make sure all this is okay with your parents.

If you can't read, learn. Equipment-wise, have a good-sounding basic drumkit, and keep it in good shape. Be able to set it up quickly. Beyond that, you don't have to have any special equipment. Print up business cards with your name and number. You can do this cheap with your own computer, and print them on pre-perforated sheets of card stock you can buy in any office supply store.

To do weddings, conventions, and other corporate work, you'll need a tuxedo or a decent black suit. It's helpful to have a versatile appearance, and to be open-minded about modifying your appearance for specific gigs.

When you play with older musicians, shut up and listen. Follow their directions. Watch them like a hawk while you play. If you can't hear them, play softer.