Speak Up or Shut Up?

[Tony]

dad is the worst, and so I have some of the same traits as him. What's interesting is that it's completely genetic. How do I know? Because my parents divorced when I was 10 years old, and I didn't see my dad for over 25 years. Didn't know if he was dead or alive ... but he reconciled with me just 3 years ago ... and I was amazed just how alike we were, and it wasn't learned behavior ... it's in the genes.

Not to get off topic, and I agree with the genes having a big role, but if you're Dad was in your life until age 10, you learned much more from him then you realize.  Most long term human behavioral traits are learned by age 6.  For more info see..........  http://national.unitedway.org/files/pdf/sb6/Research_with_Source_Information.pdf]http://national.unitedway.org/files/pdf/sb6/Research_with_Source_Information.pdf

[Bart Elliott]

Not to get off topic, and I agree with the genes having a big role, but if you're Dad was in your life until age 10, you learned much more from him then you realize.  Most long term human behavioral traits are learned by age 6.  For more info see..........  http://national.unitedway.org/files/pdf/sb6/Research_with_Source_Information.pdf]http://national.unitedway.org/files/pdf/sb6/Research_with_Source_Information.pdf

Well, you don't know the whole story obviously, but although my parents didn't divorce till I was 10, I rarely saw my dad in my early years. I agree with you about the long term human behavioral traits however. Let's not make this thread about me.  ;D I wasn't trying to go there ... just admitting my own faults and traits that I've worked hard to change.

Now ... back to the topic at hand.

[MacAttack]

How do I know? Because my parents divorced when I was 10 years old, and I didn't see my dad for over 25 years. Didn't know if he was dead or alive ... but he reconciled with me just 3 years ago ... and I was amazed just how alike we were, and it wasn't learned behavior

Not to side note too badly, but that's really interesting, my parents divorced when I was 7, and my dad dissapeared off my radar until I was 22. Zero contact. My wife tracked him down to inform him of his newly arrived grandson.

Anyway, we have become quite close in the insueing years, and we are constantly amazed at the depth of our similarities.

On the topic; I have found that drummers in general seem to be a little more open about sharing ideas, advice and even critiques, than other musicians, especially guitar players and vocalists.

I have seen guitarists and vocalists whom are normally very easy going bristle like a mad cat at even the slightest comment that could be construed as criticism or suggestion, especially coming from one of their own ilk.

I think drummers are more likely to listen to another drummer and think, "Hmm, meter is off a bit, or phrasing was a little rough in that section", but not say anything, maybe not even think, "Jeez, I could do it so much better...." and much less likely to say that to anyone.

Over the years, I have found fellow drummers to be far more likely to be complimentary and supportive (even at times I thought I really blew it).

Funny, the two times I found myself in a position of hearing someone else fill the drum chair I normally occupied for extended periods (church group, I was filling in on sound, bass or directing), I never thought of actually giving advice to the replacement drummer, even if I thought they should play the songs the way the rest of the band was used to hearing it.

In both occasions, the other drummers eventually asked me to actually show them what it was I had played in a few different sections, or some pieces. In fact, both times, they both had a similar comment, "I thought you would at least help me out on this stuff!".

Since they were both experienced drummers, I never thought they would want that from me.

I would say every situation is unique, but for the most part, it's much better to compliment the postive first, and possibly only. You never know, it might open up a conversation that could lead to a comment on a particular part, or maybe not.

[JeepnDrummer]

I didn't say everything was "black and white" ... but of the things I've mentioned above, these traits are in people who give unsolicited advice again and again ... even if the trait is in seed form. I'm talking about the individual who would give the advice cold ... meaning they have no real relationship with the individual they are giving the advice to ... and there was no discussion, word or action by the recipient that would suggest that they were looking for input.

JeepnDrummer ... are you saying that you struggle with wanting to give unsolicited advice? If the answer is yes, and you believe that you don't have thoughts of being better than those who you are giving unsolicited advice, then perhaps it's one of the other points I mentioned. Insecurity, low self-esteem, feeling under-valued, etc. I wasn't suggesting that someone who gives unsolicited advice is operating in all of my three points (see above), although many do. JeepnDrummer, perhaps you can give me some examples of your perspective based on your experiences ... and why don't don't feel it's as "black and white" as you put it. I'm having a hard time understanding when unsolicited advice would be good and/or encouraged. My points that made were based on the unsolicited advice that is suggested by the original post.

Often times when we are in the middle of something, like the urge of giving unsolicited advice ... we just can't see it. If we could see ... well, we probably wouldn't continue to operate that way.

I've had to deal with MY OWN issues of wanting to give unsolicited advice. My dad is the worst, and so I have some of the same traits as him. What's interesting is that it's completely genetic. How do I know? Because my parents divorced when I was 10 years old, and I didn't see my dad for over 25 years. Didn't know if he was dead or alive ... but he reconciled with me just 3 years ago ... and I was amazed just how alike we were, and it wasn't learned behavior ... it's in the genes. So I have had to make a choice to either continue to feed the monster, or to cut it's head off and change my temperament ... which is a life-long endeavor.  ;D

Awareness of what we need to work on is the biggest hurdle to jump in being a whole individual. Knowing that we have tendencies is first step to changing the habit. You can't change what you don't think exists. And in all of this, I don't want to give anyone unsolicited advice about their problem(s) with needing to give unsolicited advice!  8)

Hey, I didn't ask for your advice!  ;D  Just kidding.

I actually agree with you and the others here.  My point is that we look at this issue from different perspectives that are usually based on our experiences and often as a result of the environments in which we play.  For example, if my gig were the bar circuit and people came up to give me unsolicited advice, I'd probably be a little perturbed too.  On the other hand, when I meet and chat up with another drummer at, let's say a church function, and we have good rapport, I find it much easier to talk about these sort of things.  I've had chats with drummers where we openly discussed our shortcomings and strengths and often shared advice, tips, whatever, in a nice, non-threatening way.

No, I don't struggle with wanting to give unsolicited advice.  If I had a "symptom" of having one of the issues from your list, Dr. Bart, it would probably be insecurity about my drumming ability.  That was mostly true years ago; however, it's something I really haven't concerned myself with for the past 6-7 years or so because I accepted my place in life when behind the kit.

The way I look at it now is I love to learn and recognize the potential to gain something new from the experts as well as the new players.  This includes being open to suggestions from other musicians....the guitarist, bassist, keyboard player, etc.  I try to be humble about these things because I really dislike big egos.  I'm sure many of us have worked with people who are/were very sensitive to suggestions, corrections, etc., during band practice/rehearsal time.  When I work with someone new I always tell that person to tell me straight up if I'm causing a problem; that I don't get offended, but instead I treat it as a learning situation.

[JeepnDrummer]

I have found that drummers in general seem to be a little more open about sharing ideas, advice and even critiques, than other musicians, especially guitar players and vocalists.

I have seen guitarists and vocalists whom are normally very easy going bristle like a mad cat at even the slightest comment that could be construed as criticism or suggestion, especially coming from one of their own ilk.

I think drummers are more likely to listen to another drummer and think, "Hmm, meter is off a bit, or phrasing was a little rough in that section", but not say anything, maybe not even think, "Jeez, I could do it so much better...." and much less likely to say that to anyone.

Over the years, I have found fellow drummers to be far more likely to be complimentary and supportive (even at times I thought I really blew it).

Funny, the two times I found myself in a position of hearing someone else fill the drum chair I normally occupied for extended periods (church group, I was filling in on sound, bass or directing), I never thought of actually giving advice to the replacement drummer, even if I thought they should play the songs the way the rest of the band was used to hearing it.

In both occasions, the other drummers eventually asked me to actually show them what it was I had played in a few different sections, or some pieces. In fact, both times, they both had a similar comment, "I thought you would at least help me out on this stuff!".

Since they were both experienced drummers, I never thought they would want that from me.

I would say every situation is unique, but for the most part, it's much better to compliment the postive first, and possibly only. You never know, it might open up a conversation that could lead to a comment on a particular part, or maybe not.

I agree.  This was sort of the angle I was coming from.

[Bart Elliott]

Hey, I didn't ask for your advice!  ;D  Just kidding.

I actually agree with you and the others here.  My point is that we look at this issue from different perspectives that are usually based on our experiences and often as a result of the environments in which we play.  For example, if my gig were the bar circuit and people came up to give me unsolicited advice, I'd probably be a little perturbed too.  On the other hand, when I meet and chat up with another drummer at, let's say a church function, and we have good rapport, I find it much easier to talk about these sort of things.  I've had chats with drummers where we openly discussed our shortcomings and strengths and often shared advice, tips, whatever, in a nice, non-threatening way.

No, I don't struggle with wanting to give unsolicited advice.  If I had a "symptom" of having one of the issues from your list, Dr. Bart, it would probably be insecurity about my drumming ability.  That was mostly true years ago; however, it's something I really haven't concerned myself with for the past 6-7 years or so because I accepted my place in life when behind the kit.

The way I look at it now is I love to learn and recognize the potential to gain something new from the experts as well as the new players.  This includes being open to suggestions from other musicians....the guitarist, bassist, keyboard player, etc.  I try to be humble about these things because I really dislike big egos.  I'm sure many of us have worked with people who are/were very sensitive to suggestions, corrections, etc., during band practice/rehearsal time.  When I work with someone new I always tell that person to tell me straight up if I'm causing a problem; that I don't get offended, but instead I treat it as a learning situation.

That's cool.

I think the BIG difference in what you are describing is that there is a mutual respect and/or understanding with the people you are visiting/chatting with. Even if you've just met someone, you can quickly become friends, sharing your strengths and weaknesses, etc. I personally wasn't referring to these types of situations, which I consider to be relational in nature, to be a candidate for the 3 points I laid out earlier.

What I believe we are talking about is giving or receiving unsolicited advice to/from people we don't know and/or don't have a relationship with.

I'm sure many of you married folk have to deal with giving/receiving unsolicited advice to/from your spouse ... I know I do. But that's an entirely different dynamic. There are times that I inform my wife that I'm not looking for advice, and I'll ask when I need some input. Typically this is when I'm working to repair something. I'm right in the middle of working out a solution to the problem, only to have someone who's not involved with the project in any way to begin making suggestions on how THEY think it should be done.  ;) Got to love that; NOT!  ;)  I don't like it done to me, so I try to make a point not to do it to someone else. If they want help, they'll ask. If you think they won't ask, let them know that you are available should they want/need advice or find themselves stuck without a solution.

[Dead Trooper]

Theres NOTHING like getting a compliment from a guy after a gig and then getting his card, which details he is a DRUM INSTRUCTOR.

That'll make you say SHUT UP.

[Scheming Demon]

Thank God I have kept my mouth shut all along and will continue to do so.  I would never offer cold unsolicited advice to someone I just met.  There are a few drummers that I've met a number of times and we talked shop and have built up a sort of relationship and these were the ones I was considering.  However I wouldn't exactly say the relationship has developed to the point where constructive criticism would be welcome, maybe but probably not.

Anyway, after reading Dr. Bart's response I have to admit that maybe there is some unwanted ego slipping in there as much as I don't like to admit it.

I think if my personal relationships with these other drummers ever develops further it may reach the point where the discussion will naturally evolve into that sort of thing.

Thanks for reaffirming what I've always thought to be right!

[rca]

I admit that I am an unabashed Know-it-all who loves to talk, but I would never walk up to a drummer at a gig and tell him how he ought to play. No matter how good the advice would have been. An unsolicited offer to help, yes. I have lent tools, clasps, drum keys, etc., and even cymbals and snares on occassion.

[Todd Norris]

I'm sure many of you married folk have to deal with giving/receiving unsolicited advice to/from your spouse ... I know I do. But that's an entirely different dynamic. There are times that I inform my wife that I'm not looking for advice, and I'll ask when I need some input. Typically this is when I'm working to repair something. I'm right in the middle of working out a solution to the problem, only to have someone who's not involved with the project in any way to begin making suggestions on how THEY think it should be done.  ;) Got to love that; NOT!  ;)  I don't like it done to me, so I try to make a point not to do it to someone else. If they want help, they'll ask. If you think they won't ask, let them know that you are available should they want/need advice or find themselves stuck without a solution.

Ooh, right on the money Bart! I don't know how many times I offered advice when she only wanted to vent, and how many times I sat and listened to her "vent" only to discover that she needed SOLUTIONS!  Ugh.  

But to the main question.  If I don't know somebody I keep my trap shut.  If someone asks I'll give positive points to get the conversation started.  With my students I offer positive comments and then ask them what THEY think were some problem areas.  Sometimes they know, other times they don't.  I think they respond well when they figure out (through some questioning) what the issues I'm thinking of are...  Generally speaking, that's a good teaching technique in any situation (IMHO).  

[DrumDude]

I never offered advice, I dont feel I'm qualified enough to do that...

as far as receiving advise, if its a drummer I know and respect, I have often mentioned to them either during breaks or after shows, that I needed guidance in certian licks or beats. They will get with me afterwards to help me out some. They wouldnt try to show me during a gig just to spare me. I respect them for that.

now if its someone I dont know or a non-drummer I listen if they make comments, if i think i can help, i may attempt the suggestion or not. depending how they approach me. then again, my current bass player makes suggestions during the middle of a song...i think he gets tired of me handing him my sticks between songs  ;)

[Lael]

"then perhaps it's one of the other points I mentioned. Insecurity, low self-esteem, feeling under-valued, etc. I wasn't suggesting that someone who gives unsolicited advice is operating in all of my three points"
 
Could it possibly be that some people who are giving advice might only be wanting to help; not wanting or needing to put themselves in a higher position?

[Bart Elliott]

"then perhaps it's one of the other points I mentioned. Insecurity, low self-esteem, feeling under-valued, etc. I wasn't suggesting that someone who gives unsolicited advice is operating in all of my three points"
 
Could it possibly be that some people who are giving advice might only be wanting to help; not wanting or needing to put themselves in a higher position?

No.

Why are you wanting to help? What is it in you that makes you think you can help and that the other individual needs what you have to offer? If you are wanting to help to the point that you are unwilling to wait for the individual to ask for assistance, then I would suggest you've got a problem. Does that make sense? You may think you've got some information or insight to help them, and are just dying to share that knowledge ... why is that? Why is it difficult to want to hold off from assisting? If they never ask for advice, then what's your loss?

My previous paragraph is a perfect description of my dad, which I mentioned earlier. He can not stand to wait when he has the answer or solution to someone's problem. Or should I say what he THINKS is the answer or solution to someone's problem.

Unless they ask you for help, you are operating out of presumption and your own opinion that they need your advice, assistance or help. You may want to help, but your desire is not going to do any good unless the other party receives your help.

When I listen to sound clips in the "Let's Hear You Play" thread, I don't contact each member and let them know what they are doing wrong and how I can help them. They didn't ask for help, so I would be operating out of presumption that they wanted my help or advice. I would probably offend a large percentage of those I contact unsolicited. As an educator, I live to help people ... that's why I started this forum. I don't want or need to put myself in a higher position. It's for this reason that I don't go around telling (helping) people with what I think they need to do. If they share with me about a problem, then that's an open door for me to offer help.

If you watch my video correspondence lesson clip, and you think that you've got some sort of insight into a problem or flaw in my playing, the last thing I would want ANYONE to do is contact me and start correcting me, trying to fix me, or how you think I could do it better. If I don't have a relationship with you or don't know you, I probably don't respect anything that you have to say. I don't care how many years of experience you have or who you play with. You would be presumptuous to think that I respect your playing, your advice, or opinion ... and that I want to hear from you. Sounds harsh? Well, not when you don't know me or have a relationship with me. Even my friends, I don't give unsolicited advice. If conversation moves in a direction that I share something that I need help with, that opens a door for you to comment what your thoughts are.

Failing and struggling is part of the learning process. My son may be trying to learn to achieve a particular task, but if I constantly jump in and try to fix him, I'm robbing him of learning from his mistakes. Although he just turned 5-years-old, I don't assume that he doesn't understand how to do something. I sit back and watch him struggle. If he can't do it, he'll let me know and ask for assistance. Sometimes I just tell him what to do, sometimes I show him what to do, sometimes I just tell him to keep trying ... he'll get it.

You can't just jump in and try to fix something everytimeyou see a need ... no matter how real that need may be. Actually you can, but you may do more damage than good. If it's life or death, that's different.

So ... learn (as I am learning) to hold your tongue and wait for the right timing. If you can't show self-control and restraint in witholding your assistance, then I really do think you need to deal with that. You just may have a bigger problem than the person you are trying to help!

I know this is a hard thing; I've struggled with it myself. And when you are giving unsolicited advice, you probably won't see the truth of what I am trying to reveal. I know I didn't see it at that time in my life ... and my dad still doesn't see it.  8)

I bet I'm making so many friends right now.

[Marcos]

Is it proper to offer your help when you see a less experienced drummer?

Yes and the best offer of help would be to simply say, "Hey Bro', mind if I sit in?"

;D

[drumwild]

The funniest thing is being in the drum dept. at the music store, and this kid starts on giving advice about "the best cymbals," etc. Everyone around is silent until he leaves.

I stay out of it, unless I'm online (haha). A few drummers have asked me about their playing, or if I think they should change anything. To me, drummers are kinda like snowflakes. No two are exactly alike.

[KevinD]

I don't give out unsolicited advice to strangers, I have nothing to prove, or any credibility with the person and will at best, only serve as a distraction.

I do usually go and chat with the drummer and talk shop. That to me is way more important than showing them that I'm an authority on drumming.  

In thinking about this even more, I don't know if I even feel comfortable giving advice when asked.

A few times after gigs I've been approached and asked certain questions about my grip, technique, etc.. (although I'm usually asked where the rest room is :-)

While I've been at this a while, I really only know what works for me, I can't say that I know what works for everyone else.

A qualified teacher is the best person to ask. I'd hate to give the wrong advice or have them screw themselves up by interpereting what I told them the wrong way.

[glamrocker]

I totally disagree with the idea of keeping your mouth shut.. I mean lets face it, If no one gave advice and  no one ever accepted any ,then none of us would ever learn anything...I have learned much from unsolicited advice and tips and if I come across someone who made it obvious that they were NOT interested then its their loss....a good example of this was the drummer of a band  that I used to play Saxpophone with..He had NO concept of pick up beats outside the bar or of phrases or grouping things like triplets (to HIM, 3 triplets were merely 9 hits on the snare)  when I tried to point him in the right direction with a bit of "hey mate, you might find this usefull" type of advice, His response was "But you are only a club drummer!"  .... 10 years later He STILL messes up and  STILL get frustrated ( as does the rest of his band) and all down to the same old problem that I could have sorted out for him in a few basic theory lessons...  but do I care ???  Not a Bloody JOT!

[glamrocker]

If no one is prepared to GIVE advice without being asked then we need to ask ourselves whether we are truly being supportive or stunting the development of others...If I give advice then the other person can either take it or leave it..the ball is in THEIR court...if they choose not to accept then fair enough but at least I have done MY bit and I can sleep soundly!

[Bart Elliott]

I totally disagree with the idea of keeping your mouth shut.. I mean lets face it, If no one gave advice and  no one ever accepted any ,then none of us would ever learn anything...I have learned much from unsolicited advice and tips and if I come across someone who made it obvious that they were NOT interested then its their loss....a good example of this was the drummer of a band  that I used to play Saxpophone with..He had NO concept of pick up beats outside the bar or of phrases or grouping things like triplets (to HIM, 3 triplets were merely 9 hits on the snare)  when I tried to point him in the right direction with a bit of "hey mate, you might find this usefull" type of advice, His response was "But you are only a club drummer!"  .... 10 years later He STILL messes up and  STILL get frustrated ( as does the rest of his band) and all down to the same old problem that I could have sorted out for him in a few basic theory lessons...  but do I care ???  Not a Bloody JOT!

Your example doesn't support your stance, in fact it shows the flaw! You tried to give a guy unsolicited advice, he didn't receive and blew you off! Also, you both were in a working relationship ... big difference.

No one is saying that we should not give advice or not accept advice. You have exaggerated the entire view. It's unsolicited advice that comes from strangers ... that's what we are talking about. The original post that started this thread was about approaching a fellow drummer ... not someone they are in a band with, not someone that they have any kind of friendship or relationship with.

I'll only speak for my comments ... which were all based on approaching or being approached by an individual whom I do not know or have a relationship with.

Glam* Rocker** ... based on your comments, I seriously doubt that what you are calling unsolicited is coming from a total stranger. Rather, it's someone you've become friends with, worked with, or opened up to. If you've had positive results receiving unsolicited results, good for you. But for anyone to imply that unsolicited advice is a healthy ettiquette practice, in my opinion when it comes to interpersonal communication, they would be very wrong.

Of course anyone can do whatever they want. But don't get upset when someone doesn't receive your unsolicited advice, especially if they haven't opened themselves up to you ... giving you the okay to speak into their lives. Likewise when someone whom you do not know, don't respect as an authority, or do not have a relationship, starts giving YOU advice ... be sure to not be turned off.

Seems like there are a lot of us here that need to learn what healthy boundaries are. Not only having our own boundaries, but also respecting the boundaries of others.

[felix]

I prefer if you have an opinion about my playing keep it to yourself *live, at the gig*.  I don't get too many of the "know it all drum instructors" advising me and taking notes on my previous set- but I get off handed remarks now and then.  Usually it's just like "whatever" I'm playing out and you aren't.

My best friend is a drummer and he's such an awesome player and person.  He NEVER gives me advice and I never give him advice.  We ask it from each other once in awhile and it's surprising how we can tear into each other- but it's for healthy constructive purposes.  When I watch him play or he watches me and we compliment each other; it's kinda hard for each of us to take the compliment- but we do- it's heart felt; as all compliments should be- with no hidden agendas.

If I post something here, it's up for commentary.  If there is something one doesn't like about my playing I really don't care if you let me have it or not.  I know my abilities and flaws a lot better than you bub- and man, was that a hard pill to swallow.

I purposely don't ask Bart or any teachers anymore to review my playing because, honestly I don't want any outside influences at this point in my playing.  I stink, I know it even after several hundred drum lessons and I'm not going to get much better much sooner any time quicker no matter who works on me.  When I'm ready for a lesson I would probably spend a day or two with Bart or a similar teacher and have them deconstruct an identified flaw.  After I tried it on for awhile and if I incorporated into my playing- well, that would be that.  I paid them, got a lesson and used it.  Simple as that- no ego, just a sharing of information... it works best that way if you ask me.