Selling Out

[BBJones]

Probably ;)

All kidding aside I still feel like this is moving forward however slow it may seem.  But hey, if no one wants to discuss this anymore fine.. stop posting :)

[nudrum]

Yes, but we don't seem to be saying anything new (with your most recent post as a case in point). Will you only be satisfied when everybody claims to agree with you? I don't see that happening.

yeah, I stopped reading this post ages ago. In fact I'm not reading this as I write it!

[SteveE9C6]

Such an abstract concept... I have heard the selling out argument ad nauseum for the last 35 years. At one time I may have even subscribed to the thought that playing any music but "the right music" was selling out. Yeah, I can remember when I felt that I had to do things a certain way or I was betraying some lofty principle.

.... Funny thing. Something happened along the way. It's called life. You know, the things which when all is said and done really matter. I love music and maybe at my funeral my love of music will be celebrated. But at the end of my life, I want to have touched someones life that truly matters. Is that music? Not for me.... maybe for a infinitelly small percentage of people. But not me.

Long ago, I realized that I was a competent musician. I have received multiple opportunities to work the road. Here is the funny thing... some of my musician friends don't understand why I would turn down these jobs.

I turn them down because I would be selling out my family by doing this.... That's the truth.  That would be the real "selling out". What's important in the sphere of humanity? Love, compassion, faith, purpose, service...

hmmm.... I don't see "be a world famous drummer only playing suitable music".  Sure.... It's wonderful to succeed and to be successful at what you do.... but my criteria for success includes the five pillars of graceful humanity I list above.

..... all music has some merit... all of it.

[Tony]

No.  Selling out is an explicitly defined term.  Why this is "fuzzy" or seems to no longer apply in today's society is becuase social standards continue to degrade to the point that it is "expected" that people will continunally abandon their principles/beliefs at some point to "make it" in today's economy/society.

Police are corrupt.
Lawyers lie.
People sell out.

It is just "normal" and somewhat accepted these days.  It is quite rare to find people that are unwilling to betray themselves (on any level) to "fit in" with what everyone else wants.

Having spent the last 15 years as a Secial Agent investigating police and public corruption, i have to say you have no idea what you're talking about.  If you really believe that society accepts this behavior, then you either:

A. Live in the former Soviet Union or;
B. Live in a bubble.

I won't continue in a rant on how uninformed you are about society's moral expectations.

I will, however point out this:

Do I think John or Neil sold out?  No.  Can I use them in an example of selling out?  Yes of course.  Stay objective and look beyond the words I use.

Actually, you did state that if John Bonham played a reggae song against his musical principles, then he did sell out:

If Bonham truly despised reggae and had some personal belief that he would simply never play it, but was told by the band he had to, he is selling out.  So what if it's compromise or anything else, he is selling himself out to the band.  It doesn't matter what for or if it was successful, bottom line is he betrayed his OWN principles for potential gain.  SELLOUT!

[RHSquonk]

hmm...in reading this thread...I am reminded of the Metallica "behind the music" where they were asked about "selling out" and Jason said "you're right...we sell out....every place we play and every night." ( or something to that effect  ??? )
to me...THAT is selling out.
The rest is just anger at change. nothing more...nothing less.
I can't belive this thread has gotten this much mileage.
-RHS  :)

[ModernDrummer]

From BBJones:

"It is sad to see/hear that so many people are so easily tempted by money that they will drop whatever it is they do for it in an instant."

I dunno that I'd drop WHATEVER I'd do in my life for it, but when it comes to a drumming job, I likely would if there's ENOUGH temptation.

I guess I thought I should make some sort of reply since I've admitted here that I'd "sellout" musically if there were enough tempation (in this case, $$$) involved.

Maybe musically I would, but that doesn't mean I'd sell my lady into prostitution for it, or sacrifice small animals, LOL. Just wanted to clarify here that as far as I'm aware here, we're ONLY talking about musically. Thanks...

Well, maybe it's because I'm just not THAT attached to my musical preferences. I'm not a real fan of Blues, to be honest. Jazz, I like somewhat. Don't like C&W at all, nor do I have any special affinity for Funk, Fusion, or Punk. And I can't STAND real deep "Metal" (heavier than Metallica) with the guttural / growling screaming lyrics thing.

But I HAVE played drums behind them. Even at jam nights, where I'm playing (obviously, as a guest) for free. So I think I know myself well enough to say that if there were ENOUGH money in it, I'd play behind some C&W "superstar", even though I'd likely be cringing inside, LOL.

I guess some folks would say that's "selling out". Heck, I've even admitted that I WOULD "sell out" in that way, so I guess I'm admitting it IS "selling out".

But I lean towards the views of Mr. A and drumwild. I guess in purity, wearing what a company dictates as "appropriate" attire is "selling out". O.K., works for me. I've worn suits to work, guess I'm a sellout in that way too. I'm just a BIG friggin' SELLOUT! ALLRIGHT! Happy NOW! LOL.

But I DON'T sellout my family. I don't sellout my friends. My word is my bond to them, and if I promise them something, that's it. Might as well be written in granite.

As far as musically, I just play, and hope people like it. I have music I PREFER to play, but I'm not so solidly and viciously attached to it that I refuse to do anything else, 'cause I might be labeled or thought to be selling out.

Hey, (to me, anyway), it's just friggin' MUSIC, y'know? It's not my "soul". Our ex-guitarist used to say "My songs are like my kids". Very defensive about them. I told him NOT to disrespect his son (a fantastic young man, btw) like that. MY original songs are NOT like my children. Nor do I think they should be.

They're just thoughts, ideas, concepts, you know? Some are good thoughts, some aren't as good. Obviously *I* like them all, 'cause I wrote 'em. But I know some are better than others, and if you heard all of them, you're probably gonna have a couple you think are good or pretty good, and a bunch you're not gonna like or think are "so-so". Such is human nature.

But they're just ideas. I / we (as musicians) have ideas and thoughts that pass through us almost constantly. Some are great concepts, some silly. That's O.K. I think, that's the way it's supposed to work.

But if I'm playing music I don't like 'cause someone is paying me enough moolah, I just think it's just something else I'm doing with my drumkit. I'm the same person, I'm not going to turn into something evil sacrificing small childen at midnight, LOL. I'm just doing something on my drumkit. Just another set of thoughts running through my head. If I don't like them, I'll finsh the gig, take the money and say "Wow, that sucked!" As I have (and possibly, many of you have) with jobs or experiences in your own life.

It's all just a moment in time, isn't it?

[felix]

I think a couple of the guys that posted are "signed" or have been, right?

I'd have to imagine that you do what the label wants to sell units ya know?

My band is working on an indy deal right now, and while that might not be a big deal for most of you all- it is a big deal for me.  The owner of the one label we really want to ink a deal with could really help us out alot.  I know Randy very well- he is gonna want things HIS WAY for the most part.  He's got the connections and the clout.  Do I wanna sell cd's and play out- compromise?  Absolutely.  I think it is an honor and a priveledge to even get the opportunity to sell out.  It's going to make me more professional and my art is going to have to be polished.  Put the two together and you got $$$$$$$$.  Yeah baby, can you say CRIBS dawg??? WERD!

[jokerjkny]

everybody...

just frickin' fugeddaboutit...



;D

[Phat Tubz]

Selling out is a tuff one. How about this senario:
I was 20 years old playing in my ideal band, but didn't see it going anywhere fast enough. So I joined the Marine Corps to play in the band. 3 months of boot camp, 17 days of Marine Combat training, and 6 months armed forces school of music. Then I finally get to my first band... in Hawaii! All the while I had people telling me when and how to perform even to most basic of human functions. Telling me how to play a samba, because the one in John Riley's book "Bop Drumming" wasn't what the school of music had in mind. The right way to set up a big band. Where to put all the extra bass drum hits and cymbal crashes in Sousa marches. How to look like I am enjoying my self and entertain a crowd while I play Ricky Martins "La Vida Loco". So many bad songs, so little time. So I ask you, did I sell out?
Ok maybe I did, or maybe I just really like to play drums, travel, and support a family while doing it. Let's face it, 15 years left and I will be retired. Then I can play what ever music I want and don't have to worry about making any dough!

[smoggrocks]

haven't read every one of the commentzzzzzzzzzzzzz, but i just wanted to add that many of the bands i got into, i got into after they were said to have "sold out" by their legions of fans. i'm talking tool, metallica [well, kinda; i liked them earlier on], chili peppers, soundgarden.

if selling out connotes that these bands became more commercial or radio friendly, well god bless 'em. coz i listened to the earlier material after the fact, and even though some of it may have been more ballsy or aggressive or angst-ridden, it was also more incoherent and less thought-out.

even though i like a lot of more obscure, non-commercial, less "viable" music, i think that music that gets on the radio these days has to massage the eardrum, so to speak. i mean, we all know we must think of music as a "product". even though you should still be motivated by your muse, it's helpful if you think of a song as the sum of its parts, and in that sense, anything you put together that is well thought out, well articulated, and hooky in its own right, is preferable to just being "inspired" and putting the first thing that comes to mind on tape. i'm not saying you deliberately set out to write "hits," but you should think in terms of "what's the most meaningful, structured, impactful way of delivering this tune?" and that goes for any genre.


our band's music used to be much more obscure. very long songs, lots of instrumentals, more fusion-y feeling, very diverse styles. i won't say that we consciously set out to be more commercial, but as our sound and style evolved, we definitely hooked into songs that had a clearer form, and that were more hard-rock and direct than pure experimentation. in short, we gravitated to the song rather than the playing, if that makes sense.


the end result is that more people like us. perhaps it's because people are stupid, or perhaps it's because the music really is better, even if it is more "commercial."


i wouldn't say we sold out. but we did form a clearer definition of what we're about, what we want to project, and what type of material helps promote the smogg sound.


i still secretly hope we do another 25-minute opus, but it's a lot more fun having people go nuts after a 3-minute tune, than having them watching the ballgame during the 25-minute number.

[Gregg Rivers]

LOL Ok you guys DO NOT want to drag this into the "RADIO" world! I'm stitting this one out! I'm not saying nuthin! This is me shuttin up, shuttin up! Just (hand over mouth) mmmppffmmfppmmmfff!

[windhorse]

haven't read every one of the commentzzzzzzzzzzzzz, but i just wanted to add that many of the bands i got into, i got into after they were said to have "sold out" by their legions of fans. i'm talking tool, metallica [well, kinda; i liked them earlier on], chili peppers, soundgarden.

if selling out connotes that these bands became more commercial or radio friendly, well god bless 'em. coz i listened to the earlier material after the fact, and even though some of it may have been more ballsy or aggressive or angst-ridden, it was also more incoherent and less thought-out.

I remember really being into early Kansas. They had the really killer albums like Masque and Leftoverture (so much intricate fusion and meaninful lyrics about the downtrodden Native American), then they came out with the sickeningly commercial popular radio play album Point of Know Return.
Yep, it probably sold millions and created headliners out of my favorite band at the time,, but I instantly lost all respect for the band.
They have been making new music as recently as the late 90s, but I haven't even given it a listen because of that one album where they ventured into the pop realm.
Now, my opinion of how bands do their business has obviously changed since I'm dabbling in my own music, but as an opinionated teenager, those were my thoughts.

Another band which hit me the same way was Queen.
I just loved all of their stuff for it's sheer intensity, edgy guitar, and supreme operatic vocals. The albums Queen 2 and of course Night at the Opera stick out in my mind,, but then they made this album called Jazz, with tunes like "fat bottomed girls" and then News of the World with that one they always play at football games - "We are the Champions". Needless to say, I hated that stuff!

So, just putting it out there that everyone's got an opinion, and yeah, like a-holes, they all stink,,, but some of us actually listen to musical quality and are turned off by anything hinting at popular (I'll qualify this with SIMPLE).

in short, we gravitated to the song rather than the playing, if that makes sense.

Yes,,, this certainly has been the case with my personal musical evolution. First just jamming and messing around. Then, getting that unique sound that defines you. Finally, creating beginnings, breakdowns, and endings with fills etc.
Would bet that most bands follow the same evolution!

Perhaps most of the posts here have been along the lines of:
All music is good since it took work to get there.
and in that sense ...
Agreed.  ;D

[smoggrocks]

I remember really being into early Kansas. They had the really killer albums like Masque and Leftoverture (so much intricate fusion and meaninful lyrics about the downtrodden Native American), then they came out with the sickeningly commercial popular radio play album Point of Know Return.
Yep, it probably sold millions and created headliners out of my favorite band at the time,, but I instantly lost all respect for the band...

All music is good since it took work to get there.
and in that sense ...
Agreed.  ;D

i probably should have qualified my statement with the term "cogent" or "cohesive" rather than radio friendly.

i totally know where you're coming from, in that i also don't like material that smacks of pure pop, or stuff that is trying real hard to be radio friendly.

i'm speaking more of just material that is well-conceived, even if it is more "commercial" than what we're used to.

my own musical pet peeve was the sonic evolution of Rush. i got into them maybe after the 2nd or 3rd album, and really thought they'd peaked with stuff like Hemispheres, Farewell to Kings; that kinda stuff. Then they put out Moving Pictures and everything, including Geddy's voice, changed. That was during that whole weird musical time period in the late 70s, when prog was kinda dying a tough death. I was really disheartened with Pictures, except for stuff like YYZ and Witchhunt. But we all know how much airplay Limelight got.

Nevertheless, that album was well thought-out, and even though it was not Rush by hardcore fans standards, it got the band much more exposure, and perhaps some of the newer fans started getting into the older Rush stuff as a result. Still, I never listened to much Rush after that.

Guess my point is that bands evolve, their attitude towards making music changes, and sometimes that change is reflected in their sound. Even heavy jazzers talk about simplifying stuff as they get further into their playing. "Less is more" and all that. Also, as I said earlier, as musicians, we do unfortunately have to think about whether or not the music's gonna sell, so even though the goal shouldn't be "how radio-friendly can i sound", SOME consideration has to be paid to "can this make it to radio?"


It would be great to be Tool, though, no? They get airplay on stuff that never would've made it to the stations a few years ago.



compromises2ya-
m

[Gregg Rivers]

(hand over mouth) MMMPPFFTHPMMM MMMMFFF PUTMMMMMFFF!

[Tony]

(hand over mouth) MMMPPFFTHPMMM MMMMFFF PUTMMMMMFFF!

LDB, I would be interested in your take on this.  You're in radio, and you realize some of the "behind the scenes" shuffling that goes on to compile playlists.  You obviously have something to say ;)

PS I do think this thread has taken a turn from the original intent, but it is definitely interesting.

[Gregg Rivers]

LOL You guys are making it tough for me! I tend to ramble about things I'm passionate about. .... But I'll try to be brief.
What I've gleaned from this thread is people tend to confuse "success" with selling out. Often if you begin as some advante guard act or group with a small following and bloom into a nationally known act with mass appeal, you've some how sold out! I say that's crap! I also acknowledge that some of you also realize that as your group becomes better at what they do (over the course of a career) the music changes. That's cool! That's vision! We all change as we get older. We become more efficient. We see things differently with life's experiences so our opinions change about things. Is this selling out. NOPE! All that having been said would it not stand to reason that what we write about in songs change too? How we approach writing and creating music would change as well. Right? Would that be selling out? NOPE. It's just different.
Nirvana is a great example of what this entire thread is about IMHO! Here's a band that started a whole new genre of music. Much to the dismay of it's leader and principal song writer they became "popular" and made tons of money! Other bands emulated the sound they brought to the masses and again the leader is displeased because he's no longer advante gaurd. He's now a huge part of what he hated about the music industry. Making money and being popular and sucessful was a turn off! He purposefully puts mistakes in his recording so they "aren't perfect" or polished. Then out of frustration of becoming a "pop rock icon" and a little help from a heroin addiction, he sticks a shotgun in his mouth. NOW THAT IMHO IS "selling out" my friends!  
My point here is that because music from a certain band becomes "popular" and gets play on the radio does NOT mean the band sells out! What kind of theory is that anyway? And I have another problem with radio being the bar by which "selling out" is judged. That's ridiculous IMHO I WISH my songs were THAT good! Like anything else there is too much of a good thing and yes there's stuff that's "over produced". But I give them credit for trying to make "the perfect song" or "perfect recording". I don't think it can be done, but it takes a lot of time, talent and tenacity to try!  ;)
Finally *whew* Do I think people or bands sell out? YES! But only when they arent true to themselves. Not when they dont live up to the fans expectations, but when they dont live up to their own.
Now if you guys and gals want to talk about radio and play lists, we might start another thread for that as I believe it would be off topic here. But I'm glad to share what my experiences have been thus far in this industry any time.

*Disclaimer* The views and opinions posted above are those of Louderdb and not necessarily those of the Drummer Cafe, it's owners or managers.