"beginner" drum gear's getting better...

[JayB]

It seems like EVERY year some BIG drum/percussion company comes out with a product that closes the gap between Intermediate and Pro equipment.  First I remember DW coming out with their Pacific line of maple drums.  Recently, on the "cymbal-side", it has been Sabian's XS20 cast cymbals (which I think sound pretty darn good for the money.)  Within the last few weeks I've heard about Tama's new Superstar line.  With features like Birch/Basswood shells, diecast hoops, "floating" lugs, a multitude of sizes and colors from which to choose, and cheap prices, it looks as if today's beginner has it better than EVER.  Looking at my three examples, you can get a really nice sounding kit for under a thousand dollars--and these sets are of really nice quality.  My cousin just recently started playing drums, so I helped him pick out some gear.  He ended up choosing some Pearl Exports, and the quality of this set, from top to bottom, is superb!  I remember buying a Swingstar set around 1996 and this was my first real, name brand set.  I still have, and play them, but today's stuff simply puts my swingstars to shame!  How can these companies afford to put this stuff out at these prices?  I'm thinking maybe mass production coupled with cheap overseas labor is making it possible.  If this trend continues, intermediate and pro gear will be VERY hard to tell apart!  I'm jealous!  I wish I had this kind of selection when I was starting up.  But my question, finally, is what does all of this mean for Pro gear?  Do you think it will eventually get better, stay the same, or what?  I personally think prices will come down.  Foreign made electronics tend to dominate the market, and while I'm no supporter of "sweat shops," it seems as though drums companies may be heading that way.  It call be looked upon in different ways, but what do you guys think about this?  

[irishthump]

Great topic!

It was a discussion along similar lines which prompted my recent "Cheap = Bad sound" thread.

IMHO, there is NO comprison between today's beginners and intermediate gear and those of even 5 years ago. I'm playing nearly twenty years and I don't have to tell you that entry level stuff back then was ROUGH! (to say the least)

I would go out on a limb and say that today's intermediate gear is a s good as PRO stuff from ten years ago. Just look at the hardware for starters. Almost everything is coming double braced as standard nowadays, swivelling legs on hi-hats etc.

I own a set of Exports myself, and I intend to still be playing it in twenty years! I've done around 400 gigs with it and hav'ent had to take a toolbox to ANYTHING!

No, it can only be a good thing. It's great news for anybody starting out as a drummer to be pretty assured that anything you buy now is prpbably going to outlast you! It's also great news for pro's (by Pro's, I mean the little guys who have to PAY for their own equipment ;D)
if it means it will ultimatley push prices down.

[DougB]

Six months ago I bought a 5-piece Pearl Export Series drum set.  For the price I paid, I cannot believe how well the drums are constructed, especially the hardware.

[JayB]

I like it too!  Honestly, with great heads, and basic tuning skills, you can sound "pro" at prices that are cheaper than EVER!  I still like my vintage Ludwig gear mainly because I love that era, and the sound.  However, this new gear is phenomenal!

[mediablamer]

Maybe I'm just way too interesting in marketing, economics, and such, but I too will be interested to see what happens. The drum companies likely decided that by making quality drum sets cheaper, they could appeal to a larger market, and thus produce a greater profit. Once one company finds a way to to do this, the competitors must follow. So, now every company offers affordable and quality drumming options.

The possible changes from our current state are endless. Prices for professional drum kits might go up in an effort to fool people with the "If it's this expensive it must be good" logic. It's also possible that they have much higher profit margins on these lines than they want us to know about, and they can afford to drop the prices closer to the intermediate level kits. Perhaps, the blurring of the line between intermediate and professional will lead manufacturers to gradually increase the price of intermediate drums. The discontinuation of the Rockstar line could be a move like this. It could also be an attempt to make intermediate drums more professional at an intermediate price. There are many facets to this; a lot of ins, a lot of outs. I certainly have no idea what the books look like for drum manufacturers nor do I know their marketing plans for the future. I think my dream job is to work in the marketing department for a drum manufacturer, though.

[Hammertowndrummer]

This is a great thread!!!!!!!!!!! I think that its great that the prices are falling on the pro stuff and quality is going up on the intermidiate stuff. I have two kits (from the same company) one is a int. kit that sounds way to good for the money (build quality is there too) my other kit is a pro kit that cost me over $1000 less than my last pro kit, and this one has one extra tom?????? Soundwise you'de be hard pressed to tell the difference from my old pro kit to this one.

[DougB]

Do cymbals follow this trend like the drums?  Based on my observations, you really have to lay out some cash to get good-sounding cymbals, especially when it comes to hi-hats.

[Jon E]

I would say that entry level cymbals (cheap) are (for the most part) sonically "inferior" to the "top of  the line" stuff.  Many are still pretty good--and getting better, but to MY ears they don't cut the mustard.

just my opinion

[Hammertowndrummer]

but the prices are falling.....I still pay top dollar for cymbals because I like the sound of hand hammered cymbals, but look at how good the a custom line from ziljian is or the aa/aax line from sabian these are fairly inexpensive. As it was mentioned above the xs20 line from sabian is a good sounding line as well. It has and will take longer for the price or these cymbals to come down but they will. Another great example (its being talked about in a thread on gear) is the a ziljian and cie line.....they're priced as ziljian a's (just a little higher in price) but the sound resembles the k line.

[JayB]

Cymbals are an interesting thing to say the least!  It is so easy to get good sounds out of a drum... but the simple mechanics of a cymbal are hard to manipulate.  I'm taking a shot in the dark here, but I say watch out for another cymbal company to start up.  There are so many drum manufacturers (resellers?) that the prices need to be low to stay competitive.  Cymbals sold/bought in America are pretty much limited to the "big three."  No one needs me to mention which three, because that's an automatic given.  Saluda cymbals are easily found on Ebay for really low prices, I've yet to hear one, but I've heard good things.  Marketing is expensive, and it adds to the price.  Plus everyone knows that these companies need to pay their endorsees, so higher prices are pushed on the consumer.  I don't know how expensive cymbals are to produce (in comparison to drums,) but the fact that cymbal companies usually ONLY sell cymbals makes the prices stay higher.  Saluda may very well make quality cymbals, and they can afford to keep prices low because: A) No (or very little) marketing  and B) No really huge named artists to support.  So, maybe the execs at Saluda are playing their cards right with the low price ebay thing going on.  They're getting their name out there with pretty much FREE advertising.  What drummer hasn't used Ebay for equipment?  Coming across the Saluda name is inevitable.  Wow!  That is an interesting concept right there!

[DougB]

You bring up an interesting point about cymbal companies paying their endorsers.  I always wondered just how much these people are paid for their endorsements.  I guess that could vary tremendously.

[Stewart Manley]

What makes you think they're paid?

Read  http://www.bermudaschwartz.com/endorsement/index.html]Bermuda's FAQ  on the topic.

[rca]

You bring up an interesting point about cymbal companies paying their endorsers.  I always wondered just how much these people are paid for their endorsements.  I guess that could vary tremendously.

Usually, drummers don't get paid, and don't get free products, even sticks. Best endorsement deal in music industry history was Gene Krupa's. He got 1% of Slingerland's Sales. But his endorsement made that company successful for 30 years. I guess drummers need to branch out, and start endorsing sports drinks and clothing lines.

[Bart Elliott]

Although paid endorsers are rare these days, it does happen, but was far more popular years ago.

Gregg Bissonette was paid $80,000 to play PEARL drums back when he was drumming for David Lee Roth ... and it was reported in Modern Drummer magazine ... if I remember correctly.  If I get some free time (yeah right) I'll see about looking up that article in my back issues of MD.

By mentioning this I'm in no way implying that this is common, but simply stating that it does happen ... or should I say that it at least used to happen.

[Dave Kropf]

This thread brings to mind the Gibson situation of a few years ago.  Gibson wanted to make the best Intermediate guitar, and spent years developing and perfecting the Epiphone line of guitars.  Well, guess what?  The line was so good that it began to outsell Gibsons!  Gibson was in trouble becaue people were preferring their lower line over their top of the line stuff.  So they began to scale back the Epiphone line to widen the entry/pro gap a bit.

I believe that DW may soon be in the predicament.  Don't misunderstand me, DW drums will ALWAYS be better than PDP kits, but as with Gibson, if the quality line becomes too blurred, the average consumer will opt for the lower priced items.

My $.02.

[Paul L]

good point, huff!  manufacturers are smart to ensure separation in their product line since each product added to their "line" increases operating costs.  i don't know too much about DW's business structure, but I'm guessing that the Pacific line won't infringe on DW's USA-built line since they have a significant cost separation in their product offerings, and they target different markets.  And I suspect that the Pacific line is managed as a separate business.

[mediablamer]

There is always the segment of the market that will buy the more expensive product because it is more expensive.

[JayB]

Well of course they don't get paid too much individually, but don't you think that advertising their NAME, or the band's, is worth something to the band's manager(s)?  Of course, most of what I say is complete speculation, but it doesn't make much sense for a drummer to become preferential to ONE brand if they're not getting much out of it.  Im sure these companies are spending money SOMEWHERE along the line.  I hope that instead of the line becoming blurred,and a "Gibson" thing happening, the "pro" drums get even better!  

[barefoot]

Re: endorsee's getting paid.
Now I don't know, but it seems reasonable that if a particular drummer - say Neal for instance - appears in an advertisement in Modern Drummer, like in the flashy DW and Sabian ads of late, The manufacturer has got to pay him for the use of his likeness, at the very least.
There are obviously a lot of endorsees, some of them who frequent this illustrious forum, but I'd bet a paycheck that the hi-profile endorsees get paid. To be more precise, I'd bet that Neal Peart doesn't pay DW or SABIAN for drums and cymbals, but that those companies do pay Neal for his association.
Sorry for the continued hi-jack of this thread, but, well, I had to.
Now if anyone knows different, I'm interested to find out.

[Mister Acrolite]

I cannot speak for Neil about what arrangements he has made. And he is certainly at the high end of the endorsement chain. But it is VERY rare for endorsers to be paid. Instead, they get things like gear, tour support, advertising, and sometimes committments for a specific number of clinics or other promotional events (where they DO get paid, but by the venue or people hosting the event, not by the instrument company).

It is a business relationship, and both parties get something out of it. But other than a few EXTREMELY high-profile superstars, very few endorsers are actually given MONEY to endorse a product.