Re:Jazz Ride Techniques

[felix]

yeah it is.


Check out the Rat making 250-300 with the ding a ling pattern...I'd really be impressed if he was doing that with some happening syncopation or better yet pulling doubles with your kick, brushes in hand- anyways-

I love fast/jazz these days- lots of new frontier for ME to cover.

[Rumpalini]

I highly recommend Bob Moses' book, Drum Wisdom, particularly the section on the "eight-point concept."  It really helped me understand what the ride cymbal in jazz is all about.

Hi sir. I have the book. But i'm quite dense. I'm one of those who can't get it unless i actually see it or at least hear it. Can you please enlighten me as to Bob Moses' eight-point concept.  ???

[James Walker]

What don't you get about it?  Moses does a really nice job of explaining it in the book.  If there's something specific in Moses' explanation that doesn't make sense to you, let me know, and I'll do my best to help illuminate the concept.

Essentially, in a measure of 4/4 time, there are eight eighth-notes - the "eight points."  Each count, when accented or when serving as the last note (metric division) of a phrase, has a different effect on the forward momentum of the music - some enhance the sense of forward motion, others diminish that sense.

Knowing what eighth-note divisions push the music forward and which ones don't, can be applied to the rhythms you play in your straight-ahead-jazz ride cymbal work- as well as other grooves and styles.

[Scott]

Well, since I saw this topic back up at the top of the list, I thought I'd add a quick comment.

Does anyone apply the paradiddle-diddle rudiment (RH on ride, LH on snare) to their bop playing?  This is a very Elvin-ish approach, but I've enjoyed applying it to my jazz playing and it usually results in a nice pattern for the ride (as well as comping figure), at both slow and fast tempos.  

Buddy also made use of this rudiment in his playing, especially during solos.

Anyway, just wanted to point this out as another application towards jazz ride playing.   :)

[felix]

Does anyone apply the paradiddle-diddle rudiment (RH on ride, LH on snare) to their bop playing?

All the time...usually when I'm in triple mode I will use the double paraddidle along with at least two inversions of it I play quite a bit.  If I want to play 16th's or go into duple feel I might do a version of the single paradiddle, but I don't usually (just never thought of it)- hmmm?  Pretty cool...anyways-

In medium jazz I double the value double paradiddle and in fast stuff I just play them to the value of the 8th note trip.

[Mister Acrolite]

Does anyone apply the paradiddle-diddle rudiment (RH on ride, LH on snare) to their bop playing?  This is a very Elvin-ish approach, but I've enjoyed applying it to my jazz playing and it usually results in a nice pattern for the ride (as well as comping figure), at both slow and fast tempos.  
Anyway, just wanted to point this out as another application towards jazz ride playing.   :)

That's a VERY fun thing to play! I learned it at a clinic given by Marv Dahlgren (whose independence is just SCARY). It was one of those licks that sounds much more complex than it is.

First he played it for us very fast, and then while we were all scratching our heads, he asked us if we knew what it was. When he revealed that it was just a fast paradiddle-diddle, starting on beat 2, and split between ride and snare, we were amazed.

It's funny - many drummers can't do very much triplet-based comping with the left hand at a brisk tempo, but this one is so easy AND so cool sounding, it makes you feel like you just discovered some hidden chops!

[Scott]

Does anyone apply the paradiddle-diddle rudiment (RH on ride, LH on snare) to their bop playing?  This is a very Elvin-ish approach, but I've enjoyed applying it to my jazz playing and it usually results in a nice pattern for the ride (as well as comping figure), at both slow and fast tempos.  
Anyway, just wanted to point this out as another application towards jazz ride playing.   :)

It's funny - many drummers can't do very much triplet-based comping with the left hand at a brisk tempo, but this one is so easy AND so cool sounding, it makes you feel like you just discovered some hidden chops!

Haha!!  I agree -- it is one of the those revelationary things that just makes you feel like a true jazzer!!  hahaha!!!  NOT!  :)

Seriously, paradiddle applications are cool and are the foundations for a lot of the stuff that I do and I'm sure all of us do.  In fact, I'll share a bit of info I picked up from our very own Bartman at our last lesson while he was still in town.   :(

He was showing me exactly what Felix was talking about with the use of the double and triple paradiddles.  It was mainly in the context of fusion and latin so it had kind of a Weckl/Gadd/Morgenstein sound to it.  Anyway, I had never thought in terms of that where the entire beat was linear in the sense of a double or triple paradiddle application to a drumset beat.  He also put a beat together combining the double with the triple and then a beat combining the double (6/8 time) with the single.  Actually, I think that one was something like:  in 6/8, one measure of two doubles plus one measure of three singles.  Of course, as with most paradiddle applications with triplet feels, the sticking reverses back every two measures.  

But ironically, the coolest application I got from B-man at that lesson, was actually an application of the ol' paradiddle diddle.  What Bart did was a 6/8 groove with LH on closed hihat, and RH alternating between ride and snare using this rudiment.  In light of the jazz application of this rudiment that we've already discussed, I had never tried applying it to a "beat" the way that B-man did.  Well, as you can imagine, I've now adapted that beat incorporating the sticking between toms, cymbals, etc.  I love it!   :)  Thanks, Bart!  haha!!

This is probably nothing new for most you guys, but for me, it was really a concept I hadn't fully explored or realized in all of these years.   :)

[felix]

Then group your kick in with the voices in groups of 2- 3 or 4

Yeah baby....stuffs a blast.  I think I'll quit trying to make some munny and go play my drums now.

bye.

[Paul DAngelo]

Just put on Miles Davis' "Milestones" CD today.  "Philly" Joe Jones is simply AWESOME.  This is the type of jazz drumming I'm talking about.

[Scott]

Just put on Miles Davis' "Milestones" CD today.  "Philly" Joe Jones is simply AWESOME.  This is the type of jazz drumming I'm talking about.

Pops -- that's funny, because I was listening to the same thing earlier!   :)

I was getting into the swing on 'Two Base Hit' and the brush work and trading fours on 'Billy Boy.'

Love it!   ;)

[Paul DAngelo]

Jeez, EXACTLY.  Just listened to it again.  The two you mentioned are actually my favorites.  I originally bought the CD when Modern Drummer basically said if you want something that DEFINES jazz drumming, pick it up.  The first time I heard Billy Boy.... wow.  I read there were times when he had to go unhock his drumset to play a gig (unfortunately he had a "drug" problem).  Man, this cat is phenomenal.  8)

[rlhubley]

sad, but the whole "hocking your axe" was really pretty common back in the day.  Herion kind of had many of the cats in a sad state.  

[Ratamatatt]

Just put on Miles Davis' "Milestones" CD today.  "Philly" Joe Jones is simply AWESOME.  This is the type of jazz drumming I'm talking about.

Pops -- that's funny, because I was listening to the same thing earlier!   :)

I was getting into the swing on 'Two Base Hit' and the brush work and trading fours on 'Billy Boy.'

Love it!   ;)

I agree, Philly Joe is one of the all time bop greats.  But, there are others who's ride patterns are more evolved and blur the line between swinging 8ths and syncopated 16ths (ie: a swing/samba fusion) such as Jack Dejohnette, Al Foster, Peter Erskine.  Some of the patterns I've heard are simply amazing and inspiring.  Sometimes I can't believe the patterns are being played with one hand.

Which brings  me to the technique Bart was talking about: not playing the ride on 2 and 4 and letting the HH (which is played on 2 and 4 anyway) substitute for that space.  I saw a samba pattern on an internet site that applied that technique.  At up tempo speed it sounds like your playing straight 16th notes on the ride when your actually playing it like this: Ride ("r") HH ("H")

: rrHr rrHr rrHr rrHr :  Mix that pattern with the typical samba sounding double bass and mixing up the snare a little and you've got a smokin grove.  

Ratamatatt

[Paul DAngelo]

Thanks for the suggestion Ratamatatt.  I just went back and re-read Bart's post, and along with your explanation, it seems like a great idea, basically relieving your right hand of doing something that's already being taken care of by the hi-hats.  Understand what you mean about the Samba beat as well.  Thanks again, I'll be trying it out tonight  :)  in my basement  :(

[Paul DAngelo]

BTW, thanks everyone for your input on this thread.  It started out by wanting to know if my grip and technique were correct, but I learned a lot out of the thread.

The more I know, the more I know I don't know.  ;)

[Bob Levey]

Check out the reissue of "For Musicians Only" with Dizzy Gellispie, Stan Getz, Sonny Stitt, Ray Brown, Herb Ellis, John Lewis, and Stan Levey. He was not not a big name star with the public but all the real  players new my Old Man could do the ride thing faster than anyone and with the best of them and all the players new it Max, Philly, Buddy etc.

Check it out NO FLASH JUST HARD CORE BEBOP.

Sincerely,

Bob Levey

[Paul DAngelo]

Ooh, sounds good, I'll definitely check it out.  Thanks.

[Scott]

OK - I'm resurrecting this thread per Pops.  :)

Seriously - how do you guys comp at these insanely fast tempos/jazz ride patterns?  I have a hard enough time keeping up the right hand on the ride cymbal.  When I really want to comp, I sometimes jeopardize the tempo unless I switch the right hand pattern to straight quarter notes.

[Ratamatatt]

OK - I'm resurrecting this thread per Pops.  :)

Seriously - how do you guys comp at these insanely fast tempos/jazz ride patterns?  I have a hard enough time keeping up the right hand on the ride cymbal.  When I really want to comp, I sometimes jeopardize the tempo unless I switch the right hand pattern to straight quarter notes.

That's a excellent question.  I'm still not sure.  On another thread on the issue of counting, a couple of guys talked about counting in bigger note values like half notes and whole notes rather that quarters.  At medium and slower swing tempos it's easier to comp while thinking in terms of quarter notes.  But if the quarter notes are flying by at 250 bpm plus, mentally it's impossible (at least for me) to comprehend comping patterns at that speed.  It might help to think in terms of whole notes instead of quarters.  Also, pay attention to what the piano is comping and try to get a little communication going on with the piano.

Ratamatatt

[Mister Acrolite]

OK - I'm resurrecting this thread per Pops.  :)

Seriously - how do you guys comp at these insanely fast tempos/jazz ride patterns?  I have a hard enough time keeping up the right hand on the ride cymbal.  When I really want to comp, I sometimes jeopardize the tempo unless I switch the right hand pattern to straight quarter notes.

This is a very hard topic to address via a message board. Let me see if I can assemble some thoughts or maybe crank out some written music. But here are my initial thoughts:

Part of how I suggest you approach it is the same way you (probably) learned to comp at a regular tempo: by mastering a good basic "vocabulary" of phrases you can play at that tempo. At that tempo, measures are screaming by pretty fast, so instead of the one-bar or half-bar patterns you learn in books like the Chapin book, you might want to work on some 2- or 4-bar comping phrases.

Develop a few of these that you can play well and feel good about, and learn to link them together and shuffle them around, so that you at least have SOMETHING to play at that tempo. As you get more comfortable, you may be able to play in a more reactive or responsive way to what the soloist is doing, but for starters, you want to be able to lay down some authentic-sounding time behind the soloist. Does that make sense?

I'll try to write a few phrases as examples.

Also, I have a trick for playing those "ludicrous speed" tempos, but I need to figure out how to explain it via this board. I think it's similar to what Max does, a neat trick that allows you to actually play comfortably around the 400bpm mark. Let me work on finding a way to demonstrate...