Is it proper to offer your help when you see a less experienced drummer? Even though the help may be welcome, you never know how the person will react and what they'll think.
I'm sure some, if not all, of the more experienced drummers on this board have experienced this situation. You can immediately tell when a drummer is struggling or is trying to play something and you can see and hear what they are doing and how to correct it. You could take a couple minutes and help them out very easily.
I have never ever approached any drummer when this situation has arisen because I would feel like a pompous jerk and I feel that certainly my intentions would be interpreted in the worst way.
So, let's assume my intentions are noble and I truly want to help (which is the case). Is there any way to offer help without it being mis-interpreted or should I just continue to keep my mouth shut?
I think the key is in the approach, which is stating the obvious. Being friendly and sincere will certainly help to put at ease most people who might otherwise become defensive. However, I'm convince that no matter how you approach it, some people will just react in an immature way. I guess it's an ego thing.
If I think I can help another drummer in an area with which they're struggling, I'll probably chat for a few minutes first to get a feel about their attitudes and demeanor......to see how "safe" it is to offer a suggestion. And it never hurts to ease into it by first complimenting the drummer on one of his or her strengths.
This reminds me of golf. Often I see weekend hackers who display terribly bad habits that frustrates them to no end. After running into a couple of overly sensitive people who made it clear they wanted no help, I learned to change my approach. I simply ask them if they're open to a suggestion that might help them strike the ball better. This gets a much better response. Even if they don't want help they seem appreciative of your offer. I believe this approach can work equally well with drummers.
I think your initial reaction is correct. Keep your mouth shut unless asked.
If the drummer is someone you know really well, then you might be able to offer unsolicited advice, but even then I'd be very reluctant.
I'm with Paul. Put yourself in the other drummer's shoes - how would you like it if a perfect stranger walked up to you and started offering unsolicited criticism and advice?
That's why forums like this are great. By nature of our membership, we're soliciting input, so it's a great place to share ideas and experiences. But the same can't be said for every time you come in contact with another drummer in person.
Quote from: Scheming Demon on May 22, 2005, 09:14 AM
Is it proper to offer your help when you see a less experienced drummer? Even though the help may be welcome, you never know how the person will react and what they'll think.
I'd be uncomfortable doing that. They may actually think they're doing fine - and by apporoaching them you burst their bubble.
Just recently I sat through a grade school musical. The drummer was an older guy and I really didn't care at all for the way he played the show (yes, I vented to Mrs DaveFromChicago, who happened to be sitting next to me), but I didn't feel it was my place to offer my interpretation or suggest tips specially since I don't know him and he doesn't know me.
Which raises a question. . . do you know the person in question? Would this be a situation where you might take a kid 'under your wing'?
Be careful about taking a kid "under your wing." I've discovered that many "kids" don't want to be under the wing of an older guy.
If memory serves, neither did I at their age. It doesn't even hurt my feelings much any more when I get blown off by a younger drummer who's sure I have nothing useful to offer. Who knows? He may be right.
Even when you're asked, they may not expect you at say anything is wrong with hoe they are playing. I fell into that situation some years back and it ended up with bad feelings. I guy expected me to say he was doing great and he wasn't. So, I told him a few things I thought we help him out. He did not take it well. As a matter of fact, we haven't spoken since. Now! Think what a stranger would say concerning your comments regarding his work. Just one case and point.
I miss spelled (to)at, and (Who) hoe. Haste makes waste. Sorry!
I once had a guy approach me after a gig and compliment my playing. I thanked him.
Apparently I didn't thank him profusely enough, because he got in my face, saying that if I knew who he was, I'd realize what a major compliment that had been.
This left me oddly unimpressed with him. But I definitely never forgot the encounter. ::)
It's rare that I find myself in the situation being described in this thread. There are exceptions, mainly along these lines: I've done a few steel pan gigs with drummers who aren't well-versed in soca and calypso grooves (not beyond one or two basic patterns, at least), and when/if they know that I play drum set as well as pan, they often ask me for suggestions, or for some variations on the grooves - and in that situation, I'll gladly share my thoughts (albeit, usually, sometime OTHER than on that particular gig...). Even in those situations, it's more the case of me offering new information, rather than correcting what they may or may not be doing "wrong."
However, walking up "cold" and offering a critique of someone else's work? Absolutely not - whether I know the drummer personally or not.
I make a point to never give advise unless it is solicited. Unless both parties are aware of the other has to offer and where they are at in the drumming and music awareness, it's not going to go over well.
Even though I see myself as an educator, my job is not to fix people. I'm here to help when people ask for assistance. It doesn't matter what I see or hear, if they don't want (and ask) for help, I don't say anything.
I've had students make excuses when I try to offer advise. Things like "I want to do it that way" or "I meant to do it that way" ... which is often times and excuse for some lack that they may or may not see. So, even in the teacher/student role, it can be tough. How much more when it's a peer, colleague or simply a fellow drummer!
I know that it pushes my buttons to have someone start making comments or give suggestions ... when I haven't asked for their advise. I can't tell you how many times I've had people come up to me, not even seeing or hearing me play, and start telling me the proper way to do something. One example that comes to mind is some kid who said he sat in on some recording session and learned that the best way to mic a Snare drum was having the Snare wires running from the 9 and 3 O'clock position, across the drum, as it relates to the player. ::) He didn't know me, my experience, my creditials or anything ... but felt it necessary to "show" me the "proper" way.
People who give unsolicited advise are typically doing so in order to prove that they are better than individual they are giving the advise to. The only truth is that they THINK they are better; not that they are. Even if they are better, what makes them think that I (or anyone else) will want or appreciate what they have to say?
If I want someone's opinion ... I'll ask for it. If someone want's my opinion, they can do the same ... ask for it.
So to answer the question: SHUT UP! ;D
Quote from: Mister Acrolite on May 22, 2005, 01:39 PM
if I knew who he was, I'd realize what a major compliment that had been.
Did you ever find out who he was?
Quote from: oozarugoku on May 22, 2005, 02:21 PM
Did you ever find out who he was?
He was just some local guy with a larger-than-life sense of self-importance.
Quote from: Mister Acrolite on May 22, 2005, 01:39 PM
Apparently I didn't thank him profusely enough, because he got in my face, saying that if I knew who he was, I'd realize what a major compliment that had been.
The house band I played with on the Oregon coast a while back hosted a Sunday night jam. One evening, I think it was a Saturday, a guy starts talking to me about drumming during a break. He was friendly, it was fun talking shop. The conversation picked up again on the next break and was again friendly. The last break he started offering suggestions on tuning and he also wanted to play. The band leader was sitting with us and invited him to the jam. He assured us he was a pro and could play anything on our set list and he could show me some things that would make me better. The band leader insisted on him coming back for the jam and said even Jeff Porcaro wouldn't sit in during a regular night. That guy asked who Jeff Porcaro was and in the same breath said "if we knew who he was . . . ". Thankfully he never showed up.
I won't offer any suggestions to anyone unless they ask and even then I'm very careful. I've been on the receiving end of unsolicited "help" and I don't like it. Like Bart says, the comments/suggestions are, or seem to be, attempts to prove a superior player.
If I like another drummer's playing, I'll tell him, if I don't I don't say anything.
Oh my gosh, it never stops? I thought people would stop offering un-asked for advise to Lael when she gets tall enough to stop looking like a kid. I also thought that it might have something to do with her being a girl, now I think it isn't so. I'll have her read this thread so she can learn the TRUTH and find a way to deal with it without getting too irritated. (any suggestions here?)
Will (at least) the non-drummers and (even) non-musicans stop offering her advise? I guess she should be thankful that most people just compliment her and stop there.
Suggestions??? - I just smile, say thanks and leave - when I was playing at bars the people who were being "helpful" usually had more to drink than was good for them and I don't feel talking to them would accomplish anything.
Quote from: LaelsMom on May 23, 2005, 07:47 AM
I'll have her read this thread so she can learn the TRUTH and find a way to deal with it without getting too irritated. (any suggestions here?)
Will (at least) the non-drummers and (even) non-musicans stop offering her advise? I guess she should be thankful that most people just compliment her and stop there.
I do think the best response is to just smile, say "thank you" and walk away ... quickly.
It's been my experience that people who give unsolicited advise generally don't like to receive unsolicited advice, especially when you are telling them that you are not interested in unsolicited advice! 8)
All of this unsolicited advice is posturing ... people verbally positioning themselves in such a way as to either:
1. Make themselves look/sound/appear better or more knowledgeable than they really are. It's the whole "I'm better than you ... incase you didn't know" syndrome.
2. Due to insecurity, they seek to build their own self-esteem out of paranoia and worry that they aren't valued. By giving unsolicited advice, they seek to feel better about themselves.
3. They are "know-it-alls" and have an opinion about everything, regardless of the topic or whether they have any real experience. Often times there is real knowledge and/or experience with what they are saying, but because it's spewed on anyone who will listen, it shows that they have no self-control, tact or etiquette. They quickly move into my first point (see #1 above) and work their way down the list.
It's a nasty cycle! The only way I have seen it broken is by the individual getting some real emotional healing. Feeding their
monster only makes it stronger ... which is what you are doing if you take their unsolicited advice. No one wants to be rude, but to conquer this beast you've got to be strong and resist the temptation to respond or acknowledge their comments (unsolicited advice).
So if you care ... smile and walk away. If a compliment was embedded within their unsolicited comments, then offer a "thank you" ... but that's it. You'll be doing them a great service, although it may not seem like it.
Everything isn't so black and white. I suppose it boils down to the differences in our experiences and what frame of reference we're coming from in regard to the advice we're giving here on this thread. No doubt, I'm looking at it from a totally different perspective and in many of the examples given above I can certainly see the point of NOT giving advice unless it's asked for. And it's not in my character to think I'm a better drummer than others. Far from it, to be sure.
Man! Thats some great, right to the freakin point human insight right there Bart.
You should be proud that you share such learned experiences/wisdom with others on such a mass scale. Good Job Bud.
So ya, don't give them advice, give them the URL to this forum...TA DA!
Quote from: JeepnDrummer on May 23, 2005, 10:04 AM
Everything isn't so black and white.
And it's not in my character to think I'm a better drummer than others. Far from it, to be sure.
I didn't say everything was "black and white" ... but of the things I've mentioned above, these traits are in people who give unsolicited advice again and again ... even if the trait is in seed form. I'm talking about the individual who would give the advice cold ... meaning they have no
real relationship with the individual they are giving the advice to ... and there was no discussion, word or action by the recipient that would suggest that they were looking for input.
JeepnDrummer ... are you saying that you struggle with wanting to give unsolicited advice? If the answer is yes, and you believe that you don't have thoughts of being better than those who you are giving unsolicited advice, then perhaps it's one of the other points I mentioned. Insecurity, low self-esteem, feeling under-valued, etc. I wasn't suggesting that someone who gives unsolicited advice is operating in all of my three points (see above), although many do.
JeepnDrummer, perhaps you can give me some examples of your perspective based on your experiences ... and why you don't feel it's as "black and white" as you put it. I'm having a hard time understanding when unsolicited advice would be good and/or encouraged. My points that I made were based on the unsolicited advice that is suggested by the original post.
Often times when we are in the middle of something, like the urge of giving unsolicited advice ... we just can't see it. If we could see ... well, we probably wouldn't continue to operate that way.
I've had to deal with MY OWN issues of wanting to give unsolicited advice. My dad is the worst, and so I have some of the same traits as him. What's interesting is that it's completely genetic. How do I know? Because my parents divorced when I was 10 years old, and I didn't see my dad for over 25 years. Didn't know if he was dead or alive ... but he reconciled with me just 3 years ago ... and I was amazed just how alike we were, and it wasn't learned behavior ... it's in the genes. So I have had to make a choice to either continue to feed the monster, or to cut it's head off and change my temperament ... which is a life-long endeavor. ;D
Awareness of what we need to work on is the biggest hurdle to jump in being a whole individual. Knowing that we have tendencies is first step to changing the habit. You can't change what you don't think exists. And in all of this, I don't want to give anyone unsolicited advice about their problem(s) with needing to give unsolicited advice! 8)
Quotedad is the worst, and so I have some of the same traits as him. What's interesting is that it's completely genetic. How do I know? Because my parents divorced when I was 10 years old, and I didn't see my dad for over 25 years. Didn't know if he was dead or alive ... but he reconciled with me just 3 years ago ... and I was amazed just how alike we were, and it wasn't learned behavior ... it's in the genes.
Not to get off topic, and I agree with the genes having a big role, but if you're Dad was in your life until age 10, you learned much more from him then you realize. Most long term human behavioral traits are learned by age 6. For more info see.......... http://national.unitedway.org/files/pdf/sb6/Research_with_Source_Information.pdf]http://national.unitedway.org/files/pdf/sb6/Research_with_Source_Information.pdf
Quote from: Tony on May 23, 2005, 11:00 AM
Not to get off topic, and I agree with the genes having a big role, but if you're Dad was in your life until age 10, you learned much more from him then you realize. Most long term human behavioral traits are learned by age 6. For more info see.......... http://national.unitedway.org/files/pdf/sb6/Research_with_Source_Information.pdf]http://national.unitedway.org/files/pdf/sb6/Research_with_Source_Information.pdf
Well, you don't know the whole story obviously, but although my parents didn't divorce till I was 10, I rarely saw my dad in my early years. I agree with you about the long term human behavioral traits however. Let's not make this thread about me. ;D I wasn't trying to go there ... just admitting my own faults and traits that I've worked hard to change.
Now ... back to the topic at hand.
Quote from: Bart on May 23, 2005, 10:46 AM
How do I know? Because my parents divorced when I was 10 years old, and I didn't see my dad for over 25 years. Didn't know if he was dead or alive ... but he reconciled with me just 3 years ago ... and I was amazed just how alike we were, and it wasn't learned behavior
Not to side note too badly, but that's really interesting, my parents divorced when I was 7, and my dad dissapeared off my radar until I was 22. Zero contact. My wife tracked him down to inform him of his newly arrived grandson.
Anyway, we have become quite close in the insueing years, and we are constantly amazed at the depth of our similarities.
On the topic; I have found that drummers in general seem to be a little more open about sharing ideas, advice and even critiques, than other musicians, especially guitar players and vocalists.
I have seen guitarists and vocalists whom are normally very easy going bristle like a mad cat at even the slightest comment that could be construed as criticism or suggestion, especially coming from one of their own ilk.
I think drummers are more likely to listen to another drummer and think, "Hmm, meter is off a bit, or phrasing was a little rough in that section", but not say anything, maybe not even think, "Jeez, I could do it so much better...." and much less likely to say that to anyone.
Over the years, I have found fellow drummers to be far more likely to be complimentary and supportive (even at times I thought I really blew it).
Funny, the two times I found myself in a position of hearing someone else fill the drum chair I normally occupied for extended periods (church group, I was filling in on sound, bass or directing), I never thought of actually giving advice to the replacement drummer, even if I thought they should play the songs the way the rest of the band was used to hearing it.
In both occasions, the other drummers eventually asked me to actually show them what it was I had played in a few different sections, or some pieces. In fact, both times, they
both had a similar comment, "I thought you would at least help me out on this stuff!".
Since they were both experienced drummers, I never thought they would want that from me.
I would say every situation is unique, but for the most part, it's much better to compliment the postive first, and possibly only. You never know, it might open up a conversation that could lead to a comment on a particular part, or maybe not.
Quote from: Bart on May 23, 2005, 10:46 AM
I didn't say everything was "black and white" ... but of the things I've mentioned above, these traits are in people who give unsolicited advice again and again ... even if the trait is in seed form. I'm talking about the individual who would give the advice cold ... meaning they have no real relationship with the individual they are giving the advice to ... and there was no discussion, word or action by the recipient that would suggest that they were looking for input.
JeepnDrummer ... are you saying that you struggle with wanting to give unsolicited advice? If the answer is yes, and you believe that you don't have thoughts of being better than those who you are giving unsolicited advice, then perhaps it's one of the other points I mentioned. Insecurity, low self-esteem, feeling under-valued, etc. I wasn't suggesting that someone who gives unsolicited advice is operating in all of my three points (see above), although many do. JeepnDrummer, perhaps you can give me some examples of your perspective based on your experiences ... and why don't don't feel it's as "black and white" as you put it. I'm having a hard time understanding when unsolicited advice would be good and/or encouraged. My points that made were based on the unsolicited advice that is suggested by the original post.
Often times when we are in the middle of something, like the urge of giving unsolicited advice ... we just can't see it. If we could see ... well, we probably wouldn't continue to operate that way.
I've had to deal with MY OWN issues of wanting to give unsolicited advice. My dad is the worst, and so I have some of the same traits as him. What's interesting is that it's completely genetic. How do I know? Because my parents divorced when I was 10 years old, and I didn't see my dad for over 25 years. Didn't know if he was dead or alive ... but he reconciled with me just 3 years ago ... and I was amazed just how alike we were, and it wasn't learned behavior ... it's in the genes. So I have had to make a choice to either continue to feed the monster, or to cut it's head off and change my temperament ... which is a life-long endeavor. ;D
Awareness of what we need to work on is the biggest hurdle to jump in being a whole individual. Knowing that we have tendencies is first step to changing the habit. You can't change what you don't think exists. And in all of this, I don't want to give anyone unsolicited advice about their problem(s) with needing to give unsolicited advice! 8)
Hey, I didn't ask for your advice! ;D Just kidding.
I actually agree with you and the others here. My point is that we look at this issue from different perspectives that are usually based on our experiences and often as a result of the environments in which we play. For example, if my gig were the bar circuit and people came up to give me unsolicited advice, I'd probably be a little perturbed too. On the other hand, when I meet and chat up with another drummer at, let's say a church function, and we have good rapport, I find it much easier to talk about these sort of things. I've had chats with drummers where we openly discussed our shortcomings and strengths and often shared advice, tips, whatever, in a nice, non-threatening way.
No, I don't struggle with wanting to give unsolicited advice. If I had a "symptom" of having one of the issues from your list, Dr. Bart, it would probably be insecurity about my drumming ability. That was mostly true years ago; however, it's something I really haven't concerned myself with for the past 6-7 years or so because I accepted my place in life when behind the kit.
The way I look at it now is I love to learn and recognize the potential to gain something new from the experts as well as the new players. This includes being open to suggestions from other musicians....the guitarist, bassist, keyboard player, etc. I try to be humble about these things because I really dislike big egos. I'm sure many of us have worked with people who are/were very sensitive to suggestions, corrections, etc., during band practice/rehearsal time. When I work with someone new I always tell that person to tell me straight up if I'm causing a problem; that I don't get offended, but instead I treat it as a learning situation.
Quote from: MacAttack on May 23, 2005, 12:12 PM
I have found that drummers in general seem to be a little more open about sharing ideas, advice and even critiques, than other musicians, especially guitar players and vocalists.
I have seen guitarists and vocalists whom are normally very easy going bristle like a mad cat at even the slightest comment that could be construed as criticism or suggestion, especially coming from one of their own ilk.
I think drummers are more likely to listen to another drummer and think, "Hmm, meter is off a bit, or phrasing was a little rough in that section", but not say anything, maybe not even think, "Jeez, I could do it so much better...." and much less likely to say that to anyone.
Over the years, I have found fellow drummers to be far more likely to be complimentary and supportive (even at times I thought I really blew it).
Funny, the two times I found myself in a position of hearing someone else fill the drum chair I normally occupied for extended periods (church group, I was filling in on sound, bass or directing), I never thought of actually giving advice to the replacement drummer, even if I thought they should play the songs the way the rest of the band was used to hearing it.
In both occasions, the other drummers eventually asked me to actually show them what it was I had played in a few different sections, or some pieces. In fact, both times, they both had a similar comment, "I thought you would at least help me out on this stuff!".
Since they were both experienced drummers, I never thought they would want that from me.
I would say every situation is unique, but for the most part, it's much better to compliment the postive first, and possibly only. You never know, it might open up a conversation that could lead to a comment on a particular part, or maybe not.
I agree. This was sort of the angle I was coming from.
Quote from: JeepnDrummer on May 23, 2005, 12:22 PM
Hey, I didn't ask for your advice! ;D Just kidding.
I actually agree with you and the others here. My point is that we look at this issue from different perspectives that are usually based on our experiences and often as a result of the environments in which we play. For example, if my gig were the bar circuit and people came up to give me unsolicited advice, I'd probably be a little perturbed too. On the other hand, when I meet and chat up with another drummer at, let's say a church function, and we have good rapport, I find it much easier to talk about these sort of things. I've had chats with drummers where we openly discussed our shortcomings and strengths and often shared advice, tips, whatever, in a nice, non-threatening way.
No, I don't struggle with wanting to give unsolicited advice. If I had a "symptom" of having one of the issues from your list, Dr. Bart, it would probably be insecurity about my drumming ability. That was mostly true years ago; however, it's something I really haven't concerned myself with for the past 6-7 years or so because I accepted my place in life when behind the kit.
The way I look at it now is I love to learn and recognize the potential to gain something new from the experts as well as the new players. This includes being open to suggestions from other musicians....the guitarist, bassist, keyboard player, etc. I try to be humble about these things because I really dislike big egos. I'm sure many of us have worked with people who are/were very sensitive to suggestions, corrections, etc., during band practice/rehearsal time. When I work with someone new I always tell that person to tell me straight up if I'm causing a problem; that I don't get offended, but instead I treat it as a learning situation.
That's cool.
I think the BIG difference in what you are describing is that there is a
mutual respect and/or understanding with the people you are visiting/chatting with. Even if you've just met someone, you can quickly become friends, sharing your strengths and weaknesses, etc. I personally wasn't referring to these types of situations, which I consider to be relational in nature, to be a candidate for the 3 points I laid out earlier.
What I believe we are talking about is giving or receiving unsolicited advice to/from people we don't know and/or don't have a relationship with.
I'm sure many of you married folk have to deal with giving/receiving unsolicited advice to/from your spouse ... I know I do. But that's an entirely different dynamic. There are times that I inform my wife that I'm not looking for advice, and I'll ask when I need some input. Typically this is when I'm working to repair something. I'm right in the middle of working out a solution to the problem, only to have someone who's not involved with the project in any way to begin making suggestions on how THEY think it should be done. ;) Got to love that; NOT! ;) I don't like it done to me, so I try to make a point not to do it to someone else. If they want help, they'll ask. If you think they won't ask, let them know that you are available should they want/need advice or find themselves stuck without a solution.
Theres NOTHING like getting a compliment from a guy after a gig and then getting his card, which details he is a DRUM INSTRUCTOR.
That'll make you say SHUT UP.
Thank God I have kept my mouth shut all along and will continue to do so. I would never offer cold unsolicited advice to someone I just met. There are a few drummers that I've met a number of times and we talked shop and have built up a sort of relationship and these were the ones I was considering. However I wouldn't exactly say the relationship has developed to the point where constructive criticism would be welcome, maybe but probably not.
Anyway, after reading Dr. Bart's response I have to admit that maybe there is some unwanted ego slipping in there as much as I don't like to admit it.
I think if my personal relationships with these other drummers ever develops further it may reach the point where the discussion will naturally evolve into that sort of thing.
Thanks for reaffirming what I've always thought to be right!
I admit that I am an unabashed Know-it-all who loves to talk, but I would never walk up to a drummer at a gig and tell him how he ought to play. No matter how good the advice would have been. An unsolicited offer to help, yes. I have lent tools, clasps, drum keys, etc., and even cymbals and snares on occassion.
Quote from: Bart on May 23, 2005, 12:44 PM
I'm sure many of you married folk have to deal with giving/receiving unsolicited advice to/from your spouse ... I know I do. But that's an entirely different dynamic. There are times that I inform my wife that I'm not looking for advice, and I'll ask when I need some input. Typically this is when I'm working to repair something. I'm right in the middle of working out a solution to the problem, only to have someone who's not involved with the project in any way to begin making suggestions on how THEY think it should be done. ;) Got to love that; NOT! ;) I don't like it done to me, so I try to make a point not to do it to someone else. If they want help, they'll ask. If you think they won't ask, let them know that you are available should they want/need advice or find themselves stuck without a solution.
Ooh, right on the money Bart! I don't know how many times I offered advice when she only wanted to vent, and how many times I sat and listened to her "vent" only to discover that she needed SOLUTIONS! Ugh.
But to the main question. If I don't know somebody I keep my trap shut. If someone asks I'll give positive points to get the conversation started. With my students I offer positive comments and then ask them what THEY think were some problem areas. Sometimes they know, other times they don't. I think they respond well when they figure out (through some questioning) what the issues I'm thinking of are... Generally speaking, that's a good teaching technique in any situation (IMHO).
I never offered advice, I dont feel I'm qualified enough to do that...
as far as receiving advise, if its a drummer I know and respect, I have often mentioned to them either during breaks or after shows, that I needed guidance in certian licks or beats. They will get with me afterwards to help me out some. They wouldnt try to show me during a gig just to spare me. I respect them for that.
now if its someone I dont know or a non-drummer I listen if they make comments, if i think i can help, i may attempt the suggestion or not. depending how they approach me. then again, my current bass player makes suggestions during the middle of a song...i think he gets tired of me handing him my sticks between songs ;)
"then perhaps it's one of the other points I mentioned. Insecurity, low self-esteem, feeling under-valued, etc. I wasn't suggesting that someone who gives unsolicited advice is operating in all of my three points"
Could it possibly be that some people who are giving advice might only be wanting to help; not wanting or needing to put themselves in a higher position?
Quote from: Lael on May 24, 2005, 01:02 PM
"then perhaps it's one of the other points I mentioned. Insecurity, low self-esteem, feeling under-valued, etc. I wasn't suggesting that someone who gives unsolicited advice is operating in all of my three points"
Could it possibly be that some people who are giving advice might only be wanting to help; not wanting or needing to put themselves in a higher position?
No.
Why are you wanting to help? What is it in you that makes you think you can help and that the other individual needs what you have to offer? If you are wanting to help to the point that you are unwilling to wait for the individual to ask for assistance, then I would suggest you've got a problem. Does that make sense? You may think you've got some information or insight to help them, and are just dying to share that knowledge ... why is that? Why is it difficult to want to hold off from assisting? If they never ask for advice, then what's your loss?
My previous paragraph is a perfect description of my dad, which I mentioned earlier. He can not stand to wait when he has the answer or solution to someone's problem. Or should I say what he THINKS is the answer or solution to someone's problem.
Unless they ask you for help, you are operating out of presumption and your own opinion that they need your advice, assistance or help. You may want to help, but your desire is not going to do any good unless the other party receives your help.
When I listen to sound clips in the "Let's Hear You Play" thread, I don't contact each member and let them know what they are doing wrong and how I can help them. They didn't ask for help, so I would be operating out of presumption that they wanted my help or advice. I would probably offend a large percentage of those I contact unsolicited. As an educator, I live to help people ... that's why I started this forum. I don't
want or need to put myself in a higher position. It's for this reason that I don't go around telling (helping) people with what I think they need to do. If they share with me about a problem, then that's an open door for me to offer help.
If you watch my video correspondence lesson clip, and you think that you've got some sort of insight into a problem or flaw in my playing, the last thing I would want ANYONE to do is contact me and start correcting me, trying to fix me, or how you think I could do it better. If I don't have a relationship with you or don't know you, I probably don't respect anything that you have to say. I don't care how many years of experience you have or who you play with. You would be presumptuous to think that I respect your playing, your advice, or opinion ... and that I want to hear from you. Sounds harsh? Well, not when you don't know me or have a relationship with me. Even my friends, I don't give unsolicited advice. If conversation moves in a direction that I share something that I need help with, that opens a door for you to comment what your thoughts are.
Failing and struggling is part of the learning process. My son may be trying to learn to achieve a particular task, but if I constantly jump in and try to fix him, I'm robbing him of learning from his mistakes. Although he just turned 5-years-old, I don't assume that he doesn't understand how to do something. I sit back and watch him struggle. If he can't do it, he'll let me know and ask for assistance. Sometimes I just tell him what to do, sometimes I show him what to do, sometimes I just tell him to keep trying ... he'll get it.
You can't just jump in and try to fix something everytimeyou see a need ... no matter how real that need may be. Actually you can, but you may do more damage than good. If it's life or death, that's different.
So ... learn (as I am learning) to hold your tongue and wait for the right timing. If you can't show self-control and restraint in witholding your assistance, then I really do think you need to deal with that. You just may have a bigger problem than the person you are trying to help!
I know this is a hard thing; I've struggled with it myself. And when you are giving unsolicited advice, you probably won't see the truth of what I am trying to reveal. I know I didn't see it at that time in my life ... and my dad still doesn't see it. 8)
I bet I'm making so many friends right now.
Quote from: Scheming Demon on May 22, 2005, 09:14 AM
Is it proper to offer your help when you see a less experienced drummer?
Yes and the best offer of help would be to simply say, "Hey Bro', mind if I sit in?"
;D
The funniest thing is being in the drum dept. at the music store, and this kid starts on giving advice about "the best cymbals," etc. Everyone around is silent until he leaves.
I stay out of it, unless I'm online (haha). A few drummers have asked me about their playing, or if I think they should change anything. To me, drummers are kinda like snowflakes. No two are exactly alike.
I don't give out unsolicited advice to strangers, I have nothing to prove, or any credibility with the person and will at best, only serve as a distraction.
I do usually go and chat with the drummer and talk shop. That to me is way more important than showing them that I'm an authority on drumming.
In thinking about this even more, I don't know if I even feel comfortable giving advice when asked.
A few times after gigs I've been approached and asked certain questions about my grip, technique, etc.. (although I'm usually asked where the rest room is :-)
While I've been at this a while, I really only know what works for me, I can't say that I know what works for everyone else.
A qualified teacher is the best person to ask. I'd hate to give the wrong advice or have them screw themselves up by interpereting what I told them the wrong way.
I totally disagree with the idea of keeping your mouth shut.. I mean lets face it, If no one gave advice and no one ever accepted any ,then none of us would ever learn anything...I have learned much from unsolicited advice and tips and if I come across someone who made it obvious that they were NOT interested then its their loss....a good example of this was the drummer of a band that I used to play Saxpophone with..He had NO concept of pick up beats outside the bar or of phrases or grouping things like triplets (to HIM, 3 triplets were merely 9 hits on the snare) when I tried to point him in the right direction with a bit of "hey mate, you might find this usefull" type of advice, His response was "But you are only a club drummer!" .... 10 years later He STILL messes up and STILL get frustrated ( as does the rest of his band) and all down to the same old problem that I could have sorted out for him in a few basic theory lessons... but do I care ??? Not a Bloody JOT!
If no one is prepared to GIVE advice without being asked then we need to ask ourselves whether we are truly being supportive or stunting the development of others...If I give advice then the other person can either take it or leave it..the ball is in THEIR court...if they choose not to accept then fair enough but at least I have done MY bit and I can sleep soundly!
Quote from: Glam* Rocker** on May 24, 2005, 03:42 PM
I totally disagree with the idea of keeping your mouth shut.. I mean lets face it, If no one gave advice and no one ever accepted any ,then none of us would ever learn anything...I have learned much from unsolicited advice and tips and if I come across someone who made it obvious that they were NOT interested then its their loss....a good example of this was the drummer of a band that I used to play Saxpophone with..He had NO concept of pick up beats outside the bar or of phrases or grouping things like triplets (to HIM, 3 triplets were merely 9 hits on the snare) when I tried to point him in the right direction with a bit of "hey mate, you might find this usefull" type of advice, His response was "But you are only a club drummer!" .... 10 years later He STILL messes up and STILL get frustrated ( as does the rest of his band) and all down to the same old problem that I could have sorted out for him in a few basic theory lessons... but do I care ??? Not a Bloody JOT!
Your example doesn't support your stance, in fact it shows the flaw! You tried to give a guy unsolicited advice, he didn't receive and blew you off! Also, you both were in a working
relationship ... big difference.
No one is saying that we should not give advice or not accept advice. You have exaggerated the entire view. It's
unsolicited advice that comes from strangers ... that's what we are talking about. The original post that started this thread was about approaching a fellow drummer ... not someone they are in a band with, not someone that they have any kind of friendship or relationship with.
I'll only speak for my comments ... which were all based on approaching or being approached by an individual whom I do not know or have a relationship with.
Glam* Rocker** ... based on your comments, I seriously doubt that what you are calling unsolicited is coming from a total stranger. Rather, it's someone you've become friends with, worked with, or opened up to. If you've had positive results receiving unsolicited results, good for you. But for anyone to imply that unsolicited advice is a healthy ettiquette practice, in my opinion when it comes to interpersonal communication, they would be very wrong.
Of course anyone can do whatever they want. But don't get upset when someone doesn't receive your unsolicited advice, especially if they haven't opened themselves up to you ... giving you the okay to speak into their lives. Likewise when someone whom you do not know, don't respect as an authority, or do not have a relationship, starts giving YOU advice ... be sure to not be turned off.
Seems like there are a lot of us here that need to learn what healthy boundaries are. Not only having our own boundaries, but also respecting the boundaries of others.
I prefer if you have an opinion about my playing keep it to yourself *live, at the gig*. I don't get too many of the "know it all drum instructors" advising me and taking notes on my previous set- but I get off handed remarks now and then. Usually it's just like "whatever" I'm playing out and you aren't.
My best friend is a drummer and he's such an awesome player and person. He NEVER gives me advice and I never give him advice. We ask it from each other once in awhile and it's surprising how we can tear into each other- but it's for healthy constructive purposes. When I watch him play or he watches me and we compliment each other; it's kinda hard for each of us to take the compliment- but we do- it's heart felt; as all compliments should be- with no hidden agendas.
If I post something here, it's up for commentary. If there is something one doesn't like about my playing I really don't care if you let me have it or not. I know my abilities and flaws a lot better than you bub- and man, was that a hard pill to swallow.
I purposely don't ask Bart or any teachers anymore to review my playing because, honestly I don't want any outside influences at this point in my playing. I stink, I know it even after several hundred drum lessons and I'm not going to get much better much sooner any time quicker no matter who works on me. When I'm ready for a lesson I would probably spend a day or two with Bart or a similar teacher and have them deconstruct an identified flaw. After I tried it on for awhile and if I incorporated into my playing- well, that would be that. I paid them, got a lesson and used it. Simple as that- no ego, just a sharing of information... it works best that way if you ask me.
Quote from: felix on May 24, 2005, 05:20 PM
Usually it's just like "whatever" I'm playing out and you aren't.
Yup, I think the same way...who am I to criticize someone who is up on stage that I usually paid $$ to see... They are up there and I'm in my spectator seat eating popcorn or whatever.
Conversely, when I'm up on stage I think the same way.
BTW Felix I seriously doubt you "stink" at any level, I think, as Mr. A says that we all have our own level of "suck", I'm guessing that yours is pretty high.
well im NOT blowing off because I DID say that I didnt care a jot if they refuse to take advice..also the example WAS only an example... I DO refer to advice from strangers when i say unsolicited because I myself have gained much in my early years AND still do from people comming over and saying "hey! have you tried doing it THIS way?" I dont get offended..the way I see it is that if some stranger offers advice then he has a GENUINE desire to help out a fellow drummer...If he is one of those KNOW IT ALL types then you tend to find that those kind keep quiet and just stand smugly in a corner telling all the Non drummers in his company haw HE could play it much better..... sorry if I sounded like I was spitting my dummy out.. I didnt mean it to!
I think some people are confusing "slagging off" or "criticism" with Advice
Quote from: Glam* Rocker** on May 25, 2005, 06:21 AM
I think some people are confusing "slagging off" or "criticism" with Advice
Yes ... YOU! LOL
Your comment about people standing in the corner telling everyone he's better ... that's being CRITICAL and JUDGMENTAL.
I guess those who don't mind giving unsolicited advice are also the ones who don't mind giving it ... and are also the ones that don't see a problem with it either way.
One final note on this ... those of you who live in the UK ... the way you speak to people, on forums and in person, is very different than here in the USA. This is something I learned VERY quickly when I started this forum over three years ago. In fact, the times we had the most problems in communication has been between a UK and USA member ... and I say that from experience.
All that to say, I need to consider that what I feel is proper social ettiquette, what I mean is for here in the USA. 8)
Scheming Demon, on a more serious level than my previous comment my vote is Shut Up.
I think your original wording was clearly referring to a person unknown to yourself. It is obvious to me that if you "know" the person, you will "know" ahead of time if to speak up or shut up, right?.
Quote from: Marcos on May 25, 2005, 09:32 AMScheming Demon, on a more serious level than my previous comment my vote is Shut Up.
I think your original wording was clearly referring to a person unknown to yourself. It is obvious to me that if you "know" the person, you will "know" ahead of time if to speak up or shut up, right?.
And that ladies and gentlemen is probably the best (and shortest) answer to the question.
QuoteOne final note on this ... those of you who live in the UK ... the way you speak to people, on forums and in person, is very different than here in the USA.
Ha ha, yes so true. Two countries separated by a common language! Who said that? in the UK we tend to be more, er, direct.
On the topic in question, a good bit of advice I received.
You can't help someone unless you ask them what they want, otherwise you are just helping yourself.
Hope that translates!!
I had an issue come up at the first practice for Church praise band.
there were two other drummers (both guys) and the Music Minister wanted all three of us to take turns playing Meant to Live by SwitchFoot. This was an audition so to speak.
He gave us the Music that he got off of the internet.
http://www.cmdrumstudios.com/SwitchfootMeantToLive_01.pdf]http://www.cmdrumstudios.com/SwitchfootMeantToLive_01.pdf
He gave us 10 minutes to look it over. Then we had to play with the band.
I offered to go first and they kept interrupting while I was playing saying I was playing it wrong. The other two drummers couldn't read Music. So the Music Minister told them both to be quiet because I did play it correctly.
in the mean time...please keep your unsolicited advise comm
iong if you are at one of my gigs.. cos you never know ..it MAY just make all the difference to my drumming and I will be forever gratefull for that. you see?..you MAY come out with some advise on something that I would NEVER have though to ask..or help me with a problem I never knew I had... so I thank you in advance... all suggestions welcome!!!
I hope you're equally receptive to advice you receive online. Or is that only the case at your gigs?
Hmmm. Well, giving unsolicited advice may be a waste of time, but should you deny advice if someone wants it? I don't think an internet forum is the best place for such an exchange, since you only see abot 5% of the person you are talking to. My observation would be that people who have been taught to play are usually more confident, and less defensive, than people who were not.
FWIW my 2c.
I've been lucky enough to work with a couple of extremely experienced and successful drummers in the past. None of them have given me pointers on anything I was doing wrong (and I have plenty of room for improvement). They all seemed to focus on complimenting me on some area they considered I had made good progress with.
This has encouraged me to keep working hard at my craft.
In contrast, a few record producers I've encountered, who've done nothing but pick holes in my playing, have wrecked my confidence and left me wondering if I should hang up my sticks for good. Maybe it's just my personality.
Having said all that......
I'm not about to spend time with a well known drummer and fail to pick their brains (or simply watch them and take as much in as possible) for ways I can improve my playing. ;)
I would have told those producers to suck an egg.
QuoteI would have told those producers to suck an egg.
Well, I would have used a word that rhymes with suck.
Quote from: felix on May 26, 2005, 06:57 PM
I would have told those producers to suck an egg.
You probably wouldn't have worked again. :'(
Seriously though, in those situations the only solution is to make the best out of a bad job.
Incidentally, I've heard well known producers slamming the abilities of some of the top session players in the past.
I guess it goes with the territory. This is a highly competitive business...................based on subjective opinions. ???
Somehow I figured you had to take it. Still a drag. I'd rather hear it from a producer than a drunk in a bar, who I probably wouldn't even say "go suck an egg" if they didn't like my playing. That's a good way to get a knuckle sandwich.
We had a bad experience with a big name producer a few years ago. Not all of them are as cool as Tom Dowd was.
You probably wouldn't have worked again.
Unsolicited advice
Seriously though, in those situations the only solution is to make the best out of a bad job.
Ubnsolicited advice
Incidentally, I've heard well known producers slamming the abilities of some of the top session players in the past.
Useful Information
I guess it goes with the territory. This is a highly competitive business...................based on subjective opinions.
Unsolicited advice
Are there any producers even left anymore?
Quote from: altken2004 on May 26, 2005, 07:21 PM
You probably wouldn't have worked again.
Unsolicited advice
Seriously though, in those situations the only solution is to make the best out of a bad job.
Ubnsolicited advice
Incidentally, I've heard well known producers slamming the abilities of some of the top session players in the past.
Useful Information
I guess it goes with the territory. This is a highly competitive business...................based on subjective opinions.
Unsolicited advice
You just don't get it bro. :-\
And what you've labeled in your post as "unsolicited advice" is not even advice but a comment based on your opinion. You are looking at "advice" as communicating information. That is NOT the definition we are using here. When discussing about "unsolicited advice", the use of the word "advice" means an opinion about what should be done about a situation or problem ... like you are counselling someone. Make sense?
Once an exchange has begun, making comments and giving opinion is no longer unsolicited advice.
"Unsolicited" means that you are not looking for or requesting; it's unsought.
No wonder we don't see eye to eye ... the definition of the very term and words being used is skewed.
If you start posting on a forum ... that is a signal that you are opening a conversation. If you start talking about a particular topic or subject, then the conversation can grow to the point that someone may give you advice or an opinion. Although it's not solicited, it's very different because you have begun a dialogue with that individual.
The grievance occurs when you have not opened a dialogue with an individual who proceeds to give you their advice or opinion. This is when the unsolicited advice is ... well, wrong ... at least for me it is. If we are talking about something and I share that I am struggling or lacking in some manner, then I have opened the dialogue that would
possibly allow for your opinion or advice. In this case it
may not be viewed as unsolicited.
Some of you are taking this "unsolicited advice" and just running away with it ... making it as though anyone who doesn't want unsolicited advice must also not want any kind of dialogue regardless of the topic or situation. This is simply not the case. The appropriateness of the "advice" that is not specifically "solicited" is directly proportionate to the level of the dialogue, the relationship of those communicating, and the subject matter.
Whew!
Quote from: altken2004 on May 26, 2005, 06:50 PM...should you deny advice if someone wants it?
No. In that case, if they've made it clear they "want it" then it's not unsolicited.
Quote from: altken2004 on May 26, 2005, 07:21 PM
[snip] Unsolicited advice
[snip] Unsolicited advice
[snip] Unsolicited advice
Not unsolicted. Anyone taking part in this thread has implicitly indicated that they are soliciting information (or advice, if you will).
The bottom line is this: to be able to receive and use information, you have to be in a
specific mental place. The place you're in when you want and are ready to find something out. The place you're in when you open a factual book, watch a documentary, put on a teaching video, go to a clinic, or take part in a discussion (online or offline). Unless you see something that indicates that someone is in that place, you keep it to yourself. And someone who's just come offstage is very, very unlikely to be in that place. They'll be thinking about how that new song went, what's involved in tearing down, wondering where the car keys are, finding that drink they've been denying themselves all night, looking for the bathroom - anything but picking up some hints and tips on that quad fill they failed to nail.
Ooops, sorry, my post was only part serious.
Quote from: moosetication on May 27, 2005, 03:39 AM
The bottom line is this: to be able to receive and use information, you have to be in a specific mental place. The place you're in when you want and are ready to find something out. The place you're in when you open a factual book, watch a documentary, put on a teaching video, go to a clinic, or take part in a discussion (online or offline). Unless you see something that indicates that someone is in that place, you keep it to yourself.
Excellent, excellent, excellent response. Well said.
You win the
Sunshine Award (https://drummercafe.com/forum/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.drummercafe.com%2Fforum%2FSmileys%2Femoticons%2Fsunny.gif&hash=3538db9e1d55c238bbc5d6a91f6ad07ba86e7c64) for shedding some light on this subject.
When an experienced teacher tells me how best to be an effectice teacher, I have to believe them.
Quote from: chrisso on May 26, 2005, 07:08 PM
You probably wouldn't have worked again. :'(
Seriously though, in those situations the only solution is to make the best out of a bad job.
Incidentally, I've heard well known producers slamming the abilities of some of the top session players in the past.
I guess it goes with the territory. This is a highly competitive business...................based on subjective opinions. ???
I don't think "slamming" other players is the same thing as advice is it? it seems that this thread has mutated into that somehow! and YES Mr Acrolite I DO take advice online as well as gigs as regards my playing but i do get a bit upset about being attacked for voicing an opinion that i believe is right. and that DON'T mean that I thing others are wrong.. Its a forum after all and all i did was voice my opinion because thats what forums are for....all Views are welcome surely?
Can we all put our handbags down now and stop bitching and all nice and cuddly again?
Quote from: Glam* Rocker** on May 27, 2005, 04:57 PM
I don't think "slamming" other players is the same thing as advice is it? it seems that this thread has mutated into that somehow! and YES Mr Acrolite I DO take advice online as well as gigs as regards my playing but i do get a bit upset about being attacked for voicing an opinion that i believe is right. and that DON'T mean that I thing others are wrong.. Its a forum after all and all i did was voice my opinion because thats what forums are for....all Views are welcome surely?
Yes, all views are welcome. Nobody has censored or deleted your posts (although last night you changed one of your own very heated posts).
Who has attacked you? Attack is a strong word - has anybody said you're stupid, or an a-hole, or something? Or have people simply disagreed with you?
Disagreement is not the same as an attack. You offered your opinion, in a pretty AGRESSIVE way. You received some responses. That's how forums work. Pretty cool, huh?
Some responses came from drummers with far more experience than you. That doesn't make them right, but I would think would make their opinions worth considering.
But all opinions are welcome, as long as they're stated respectfully.
Dam it! And here I thought Bart and I had the last word on this thread. ;D
I guess certain threads seem to take on a life of their own.
"IT'S ALIVE !!!! IT'S ALIVE !!!!" - Victor Von Frankenstein
Bah!
It all depends on your social skills. I see the same thing in construction. If you walk up to a guy you don't know and start telling him how to do his job, well... you can guess what kind of reaction you're going to get.
But some people do it all the time and rarely incur resentment. They have a way about them that lets them get away with it.
In a way,this is like telling a smoker to stop smoking. Then,you tell the person all the reasons smoking is bad for you and what you will recieve from the smoker is a nice tall glass of shut the hell up. Try it sometime. I still tell my mom not to smoke,but it is pointless. In my experience,you can not help people unless they want to help themselves.
I beleive it is only natural to want to help people. By doing this you are also helping yourself because of the reaction that you would get from succeeding in helping another person out.