Yesterday I started to respond to http://www.drummercafe.com/forum/index.php?board=7;action=display;threadid=6034]the "Music" thread , but I stopped when I noticed that every CD I was recommending was at least 10 years old, and in some cases, more than 20 years old.
That really puzzled me. I mean, I listen to a LOT of music, and not just old stuff. And I think there are some terrific young drummers out there in some of the newer bands - in my opinion, the skill of the "average" pro player keeps going up.
BUT - where's the next big thing? The guy (or gal) who comes out of nowhere and totally changes everything? Not just in terms of sheer chops, but in the way they change how music sounds. The ones who, the first time you hear them, make you say, "Who IS that guy?!?"
Steve Gadd did it. NOBODY played like him. But between his own prolific recording career and his many imitators, his approach to drumming - and, more importantly, to accompanying a song - has made a significant impact on the music we hear. Without Gadd, you'd have no Vinnie; no Weckl.
Billy Cobham did it. He brought a muscularity to fusion music that many have imitated, but few have matched. He was a pioneer in exploring what could be accomplished on a big kit, combining drum corps chops with the mind of a mathemetician, and playing with the brutality of a linebacker.
Tommy Aldridge did it. From a vacuum, he created what has become THE basic vocabulary for double-bass rock drumming, and even if he keeps doing the same thing he's always done, he does it with more authority than just about anybody I've ever seen.
Terry Bozzio did it. Combining Tony Williams' chops with the compositional concepts of Stravinsky and Varese, this guy changed both our notion of what a drum set can be, and what can be physically - and musically - accomplished on one. His drum parts, even on silly pop songs, are like classical compositions in their logic and complexity.
Stewart Copeland did it. Bringing a reggae influence to what was basically a punk band, his unique grooves, tuning, and use of splash cymbals represented a COMPLETELY new voice on the instrument. Again, he was a huge influence on many of today's great drummers, Vinnie Colaiuta in particular, and his splash cymbal work doubtless inspired Manu Katche.
Manu Katche did it, to some extent. He brought a very unique approach to pop drumming, with very obvious influences from Gadd and Copeland, but with his own uniquely European sensibility.
Weckl and Vinnie did it. They raised the bar significantly on what a good improvising drummer was expected to do, combining awesome technique with click-track precision. Vinnie in particular has a sick-puppy rhythmic concept that I think almost nobody can match. And Weckl's precision is just scary. But to me, neither of them have as unique a voice as the others I've listed. (This could be argued, I realize - this is just my opinion.) They are in many instances better PLAYERS than the others, but not as unique in the way they make music sound.
That's what I'm getting at: until guys like Gadd, Copeland, etc. came along, music simply didn't sound like that. They changed not only drumming, but music itself. That's pretty heavy.
And that's what I don't see anybody doing right now. True, there are some drummers who keep raising the bar on what is physically possible on the instrument. Guys like Virgil Donati, Marco Minneman, Mike Mangini, etc. But while these guys can play amazing things on drums, I do not hear from them a "stamp" that they put on the actual music they play. I've seen Virgil live, and until he took his solo, he sounded like any other good rock drummer. It seems to me that this crop of uber-drummers is more focused on technique than on playing songs.
And we do have other unique-sounding drummers, such as the "organic" sounding Stanton Moore and Billy Martin. But both of them are really just elaborating on sounds and feels created in the 60's and 70's. They sound great, but it's an extension of stuff we've already heard before.
Similarly, the drum-n-bass movement is yielding some killer players, like Johnny Rabb and JoJo Mayer. But despite their great chops and killer grooves, again to me they seem to be basing their sounds and rhythmic vocabularies on variations of the boogalo beat, which is straight out of the 60's. What they DO with that beat is fascinating, and the sudden juxtapositions of double- and triple-time sound cool as hell. But the basic rhythms they're using are almost as old as I am. And that's OLD.
Speedmetal (and all the other subgenres) drummers keep expanding the threshold of speed that human feet can attain. But I find little other innovation in the drumming.
Punk drumming has gotten better, with guys like Tre Cool and Travis Barker setting good examples. Barker in particular is a terrific player, but the things he plays can be easily traced to his influences. He is conspicuous primarily because he plays so well in comparison with his competitors in the style.
So I guess what I'm wondering is: where is he (or she)? The next drummer who'll come along and blow our minds with their unique sound and vision? Any thoughts?
This off-the-top-of-my-head list of drummers who have changed the face of music is far from comprehensive, and only goes back about 30 years. In most cases, these guys are building on what their predecessors did in jazz music in the 50 years prior. But I'll spare you a lesson on drumset history - many have written far better ones than I can.
But I'm still puzzled why I haven't heard a new drummer who's totally knocked me on my ear in over a decade. Are they out there, and I'm just oblivious?
Edit: Without lengthening this already biblical post, I do want to add Bill Stewart and Ari Hoenig to my list of innovators.
You're right. There aren't a lot of guys currently out there truly innovating a new style of playing. There are a handful of folks whose drumming has been influential, if not innovative, that missed your list:
1. Dave Grohl - Nirvana, Foo Fighters, Queens of the Stone Age, Killing Joke, etc. Hitting them really hard, with lots of flams, 16th note rolls and plain-old hard rock bashing, all tied in with an amazing sense of the song and where to make the tension explode. I'd say he's the most influential rock drummer of the '90s.
2. Stephen Perkins - Jane's Addiction, Porno For Pyros. Incorporating a world music sensibility and true four limb independence, incorporating hand percussion beats with his left hand, cowbell with left foot while maintaining a kit groove. Great use of toms as well.
3. Scott Plouf - The Spinanes, Built To Spill. Scott throws all kinds of tom hits in the middle of the groove and places emphasis on the 1 & 3 for backbeats. He's unknown outside of the alt-rock circles but I always recognize Scott's playing regardless of who he's playing with.
4. Rob Ellis - PJ Harvey. Rob's work on the first two PJ Harvey records are immensely influential. Lots of use of toms, cymbal bells in octopus-arm grooves in strange time signatures. An instantly recognizeable style.
5. Jimmy Chamberlain - Smashing Pumpkins, Zwan. Take it his fill flourishes are vintage Keith Moon, Chamberlain takes the over-the-top fill-happy style of Moon and adds a Neil Peart styled control to the chaos.
These the folks I instantly thought of who've put out records in the past ten years who have instantly recognizeable styles that they have forged from great influences and a fine ear. Two lesser known, but three of those names will certainly be remembered as the great rock drummers of the '90s.
If you're looking at pop music, the drummer of the '90s would have to be the Akai sampler.
Mr. A. Excellent post!! I agree with all of you statements and reading your views of Weckl are hard to swallow but true, you nailed it there. Quickly on Weckl one thing Dave brings to the table as you said is perfection a kind of metronome playing which is extremely clean. Technical yes and a bit staccato (staccato â€" Expressed in a brief, pointed manner. ) maybe but you cant deny his precise playing ability (you didnt, Im just reiterating your fact).
I would say the newest drummer today that has something to offer and eventually will show all his talents is Danny Carey I think Danny is just getting started. And listening to the music that he has recorded to date has blown my mind and his playing style for the type of music he plays is very unique. I dig progressive music and the ever-changing time signatures and since the days of ELP, Genesis, Rush (2112 era) and others Danny brings drumming to the level that I remember and beyond. Now that he is doing clinics I just hope that he doesnt fall into the Weckl trap and play one type of music. I hope that he follows Vinnie and Gadd and tries it all! I think with his formal music background (which I understand he is very strong in traditional jazz) he can offer drummers a lot in the future..
dw
Ah, the signs of old age. ;)
but seriously, Mr. A has a point. There are some great drummers out there today, but have they REALLY shown signs of being an innovative drummer? Sure, they have chops, groove, etc... but they don't stick out among the names that Keith has compared them to.
I can't really think of many drummers out there that (because of their style) really stick out. Carter and Chambers are the first to come to mind. Because of recent discussion, Aaron Comes (Spin Doctors) comes to mind, and also Chad Sexton (311) are great drummers that fit into that category (IMO).
Quote from: redchapterjubilee on November 17, 2003, 08:06 AM
These the folks I instantly thought of who've put out records in the past ten years who have instantly recognizeable styles that they have forged from great influences and a fine ear. Two lesser known, but three of those names will certainly be remembered as the great rock drummers of the '90s.
I'm not familiar with Ellis or Plouf, but those others you named are excellent drummers, with identifiable styles, I agree. I guess maybe I
might include Grohl - he's indeed a great rock drummer, but I don't think he changed the face of drumming to the extent that say, Stewart Copeland did. And Chamberlain always just struck me as a the new Carl Palmer, bringing amazing snare technique into rock drumming. Nice to listen to, but not based on anything terribly new.
Don't get me wrong - there are plenty of truly GREAT drummers out there - hell, there's more every day, it seems. But I'm not being as completely caught off guard by any of the new guys like I was when I first heard Gadd, Copeland, Bozzio, etc. Those are the guys who I literally remember where I was the first time I heard them. That's the kind of impression I'm talking about.
Quote from: redchapterjubilee on November 17, 2003, 08:06 AM
If you're looking at pop music, the drummer of the '90s would have to be the Akai sampler.
LOL - too true!!!
Great thread, and I wish I had an answer.
Thinking out loud here...does the perception (and I'm pretty much in agreement with what Mr_A has written above) that there are no players out there redefining drumming (or music) have anything to do with the fact that instructional materials - both formal and informal - are so widely available now? Instructional videos, the Internet, recordings (both purchased and shared, but please let's not get into THAT discussion)...the amount of material out there is far greater than anything we had when I was starting out (FWIW, I'm 37, and I started playing in the late 70s). Also, the availability of music and information from different cultures is far easier than it was back then, both due to the new media, as well as the growth in popularity of "World Music" over the last decade or so (I hate that expression, but everyone knows what I'm talking about when I use it).
Unique players grow from unique developmental circumstances and unique influences - and there's far more "common ground" in what players are learning nowadays, IMHO. The next player to really shake things up will probably have to create something new from a group of influences shared by (or at least, available to) the vast majority of other drummers on the planet, which is kinda tough to do.
Unique players also often grow (and are heard) through unique opportunities, performing with musicians who have unique visions. Think about Mr_A's list, and there are lots of examples of this: Gadd with Chick Corea, Paul Simon, Steely Dan (and about a zillion other artists)...Stewart Copeland with The Police (I'm still amazed at the talent in that band)...Vinnie and Bozzio cutting their teeth with Zappa...Billy Cobham with Mahavishnu and his own innovative groups...Manu Katche with Peter Gabriel, Robbie Robertson, Joni Mitchell...it's tougher for really unique music (at least, what I consider to be "unique" - and that's another subject open to debate) to flood the marketplace the way the Police did, for example. Radio, video music outlets...things have gotten really ghetto-ized, musically speaking, and it's a challenge for a player and/or band to transcend that and really make a mark with a huge variety of listeners.
If nothing else, this sort of discussion really makes me appreciate the guys who did put such an indelible mark on the music - not only is it tough to do, but with each new trailblazer, that's one less path available for someone else to blaze.
(The above has been submitted prior to my first cup of coffee of the day...so IMHO, YMMV, FWIW, and all other hideous Internet disclaimers apply.)
Maybe Danny Carey. But even his stuff is heavily influenced by Bill Bruford.
I have to agree, there isn't really a drummer in the last 10 years who can be considered and innovator. Most pop/rock drummers are just rehashing what's been done over and over again. Has modern music reached it's pinnacle? Is there anything new to do? Only time will tell.
Where's the next big thing?
The White Stripes- they are #1 or #2 right now with that tune "the hardest button to button".
Don't you guys know anything? Music has finally collapsed on itself! Imploded. Dream Theatre can't sound any worse to me. Time to go back to the basics. Corporations and the Internet fighting an epic battle! The power of digital recording is in the palm of your hand.
The next huge thing will be a microcosm of a tune that's part of an indy label x 1000. You will never hear it but a 1000 songs like it and you will discount it's validity cause it's not "huge" like the old days when we bought records/tapes and went to concerts and actually bought T shirts. Now we just turn on the radio and say how GOOD the corporate slop they are doling us is. We play in our crappy cover bands cause that's the only gig that PAYS and we call it GOOD. Our original band is hanging by a thread cause the market is eroded by people that will play their crap for FREE in the hopes of MAKING IT HUGE someday.
Who cares what the next big thing is. I'm just worried about today.
Hey, I got to meet one of them this weekend. A guy named Brian Blade.
He puts an indelible stamp on everything he plays, and brings an amazing joy, energy and fire to his music. He's a very inspiring and influential player.
His approach is very textural and intuitive and he isn't obsessed with technique for technique's sake, so he might not appeal to the 'fast-paradiddles-on-the-bassdrums-while-soloing-in-17/4-time' crowd, but he's one of the few musicians I would pay to see every thime.
Not just because I'm a Latin Jazz buff and happen to be hispanic but I thing that Horacio Hernandez has a totally unique voice in his drumming, his ability to play what sounds like 3, 4 or even five percussion voices all while playing clave with left foot without stopping is truly amazing, Mr. A if you haven't seen or heard much of this guy may I suggest you check out a new album he just did with Michel Camilo titled "Live at the Blue Note" some really great live stuff, and check out any of his videos. Of course all this is my opinion so take it with a grain of salt. ;)
Some really good points brought up in this thread. James' post really says it all. But first, to give my opinion to Mr. A's original post, there really haven't been any drummers to do what Gadd, Cobham, Copeland, etc. did because the mediums to which music is available/heard has changed so much since when it was presented when those guys came out. So, that's to say that there ARE/have been drummers that have been innovative and influential but not on that level because that level of impact can never be reached again given the current medium to which music/drumming is being presented. THAT is the essence of James' post.
James gets into some of the good reasons why there will never be players like the aforementioned AGAIN. Felix got into a bit about how the medium was 'back then' but if you compare the mediums of today (James' post) with the mediums back when these players came out, you may start to see how it truly will never be possible again to have that kind of playing, and even music, connected with that amount of impact. For example, back then, with fewer ways to obtain music (i.e. internet), there is less music available to the musician. Therefore, the musician is that much more in a position to HAVE to come up with something creative rather than having a musical example available to draw from. Thus, they end up with something more unique and less related to something else. In addition, with more and more and more music (styles/types of music) available to the world, musicians are less likely to spend as much time developing something specific. For example, the modern drummer has to be a jack of all trades and a master of none to survive. There are fewer and fewer players that are truly able to afford themselves the opportunity to really dedicate themselves to doing something specific and sticking with it/developing it because they are not in a time period that allows that.
Music also changes much faster due to the aforementioned current music mediums out there now. You also have to look at the industry/business side of music. There is very little 'artist development' anymore and bands/musicians aren't given the opportunity to come up with an approach and develop it over the course of a few albums. The turnover is so massive today, bands are lucky to get a one album deal and maybe only having one single released from that album. Then, you never hear from them again. How can a player/band make an impact with no opportunity to stick around to have the world hear them?
I don't really know where we're at with the next 'big thing' but it sure won't be in the same effect as the 'old' guys..
Great thread!
Is avril lavigne too old? Good one.
I like the white stripes very much btw.
Yeah and like Drumlooney says and forgive me if I speak for him but we are talking about American pop music. I think horatio is amazing btw also. Subsequently, I couldn't tell you what the next big thing is going to be in Latin America, China, Russia, India, etc. Or will westernization corrupt their music also? Hell, I wouldn't doubt it. But we won't go there right?
Just keep playing guys... if you dig it and make it sound great- it is. Is phil rudd any less of a player than horatio hernandez or vinnie calaiuta??? I don't think so. But not sure if that is relevant here- just letting you know what page I'm on. ;D
I think some people are misinterpreting my post, perhaps because of the title.
I'm not talking about what the PUBLIC perceives as the "next big thing," like Britney Spears or Blink 182 or whatever.
And I'm not just talking about drummers who have amazing chops, and identifiable styles. They keep emerging, and I think more of them are emerging than ever.
I'm talking about the tiny handful of drummers who literally come along and change how we think about drumming and its role in music. Guys without whom we would lack some key parts of our own musical vocabulary.
The more history we accumulate the harder it is to seperate us from it.
You said Cobham was unique in his time. Well, now we have to add him to the historical list of influences. So instead of having X number of potential comparisons we have X+1 ... see what Im saying? Its harder to be unique in regard to the history of the instrument because its getting full.
I think we have to look for players unique in thier field. People who take that Cobham influence and use in some other area than fusion etc. Danny Carey?
The most unique voices I hear in drumming today are coming from free improv/jazz. I think that area of music allows the most room for it really. Youre mention of Ari Hoenig is a great example. I can add Earl Harvin, Jim Black and Joey Baron to that list as well. All unique voices.
So who is unique in rock/pop? Damon Che (Don Cabellero), Jim White (Dirty Three), Pat Samson (U.S. Maple), John Herdon and John McEntire (Tortoise), Lou Ciccotelli (Laika, God, Eardrum) and Doug Scharin (June of 44, Him, Rex).
So can you hear the influences on these unique players? If you want to pick, yeah, you can. You can do the same for any player, even those considered unique. We all come from somewhere.
Quote from: 563 on November 17, 2003, 11:42 AMSo can you hear the influences on these unique players? If you want to pick, yeah, you can. You can do the same for any player, even those considered unique. We all come from somewhere.
No question about that. Gadd's Elvin, Tony, and drumcorps influences are readily apparent.
I guess I'm not getting my point across. :-\
We've got LOTS of great drummers. LOTS of players with unique styles. Hell, I think
I have a unique style.
What I'm talking about is
a unique player who makes such an impact on the rest of the drumming world, and on the world of music. Joey Baron, terrific and unique drummer that he is, has not done that. (
I sure as hell have not done that!) But Gadd has. Copeland has. Etcetera.
Does that make more sense?
Yes here I come talking about metal again... ;)
This has been happening a lot in metal drumming and continues to happen. You say the criteria is something that fundamentally changes the way people drum? Happens all the time in metal becuase drummers keep pushing themselves beyond what people thought was possible. Then they share their techniques and all the new metal drummers play that way. It's kinda normal and isn't really thought of as super-ground breaking becuase metal drummers are all working towards the same goals of re-inventing how to play metal.
And yes it's probably nothing *really* new but in metal, it most definitely is. So perhaps it's more about innovation in one particular style as 563 talks about.
Or maybe no one else really cares what happens in metal... :)
Quote from: BBJones on November 17, 2003, 12:03 PM
Or maybe no one else really cares what happens in metal... :)
Way to try to hijack a thread, metalboy! ::)
Here's a set of questions for you:
- Do you know any Steve Gadd licks?
- Do you know any Stewart Copeland grooves?
- Any Elvin Jones ride cymbal rhythms?
- Any Tony Williams flam licks?
- Any Bozzio ostinatos?
- Any Deen Castronovo 2-handed ride rhythms?
- Any Vinnie Colaiuta time superimposition techniques?
- Any Manu Katche linear grooves?
I ask you this NOT to attack you, but to illustrate a point. If all you focus on is metal drumming, and the playing of other metal drummers, you're going to have a hard time not sounding just like the rest of them.
BUT - if you were to draw from a wider range of influences, and then apply those concepts to metal drumming, you could come up with something truly unique.
Maybe your answer to some of my questions will be yes. If that's the case, I'll be both surprised and delighted. Because so far the tunnel vision you've shown in your posts makes me think you're really limiting your exposure to all the great drumming out there.
Didn't think replying on the topic at hand was hijacking ;)
Do you know any Steve Gadd licks? No
Do you know any Stewart Copeland grooves? Yes
Any Elvin Jones ride cymbal rhythms? No
Any Tony Williams flam licks? No
Any Bozzio ostinatos? Yes
Any Deen Castronovo 2-handed ride rhythms? No
Any Vinnie Colaiuta time superimposition techniques? No
Any Manu Katche linear grooves? No
Posting yes or no to any of those question has no impact on what I actually play. Just becuase I can't recognize a groove or lick from one particular drummer does not indicate whether or not I play like them. I say no in most cases becuase I would not be able to put the lick to the name, however I have heard most of these players at some point.
In case you didn't know, I only started playing metal last year. Before that I've played in many different bands and some different styles including blues, rock and pop (noteable shows were opening up for D.O.A. and also opened up 3 sold out nights for 54-40).
I take influence from as wide a variety of drummers as possible and generally do not try to imitate any particular drummer. As well as getting into metal recently, I have only recently started paying attention to what the drummer's name is. I am influenced by the people you mention but do not study them directly.
I also currently work with an instructor on jazz and latin rythym and continually try my hardest to expand my drumming abilities from all styles. I most definitely do not stay tunnelled into metal drumming, but currently that is they style I play in and try to come up with my own style of incorporating everything I know while still making my drumming fit the music. And yes, the band I'm in are very conciously trying to create a new breed of metal that isn't just (boom-chick-boom-chick-boom-chick) at 200 miles an hour. There is of course much more to it just as there is no end to reinventing everything with drumming.
Given all of that, I still think there are many innovations happening in metal drumming that have a major impact on the drummers that follow them.
EDIT: Something else I have to say... Since coming to this forum I have learned a lot about how other professional drummers go about improving themselves and learning from the other great drummers. For that, big thanks to Bartman and everyone else on this forum. I find this site an incredible resource for me and my continued development as a drummer.
Now THAT was a hijack! :P
Quote from: Mister Acrolite on November 17, 2003, 11:50 AMWhat I'm talking about is a unique player who makes such an impact on the rest of the drumming world, and on the world of music. Joey Baron, terrific and unique drummer that he is, has not done that. (I sure as hell have not done that!) But Gadd has. Copeland has. Etcetera.
Does that make more sense?
Yeah, I get it ... Maybe its just that these great and unique players impact hasnt been felt yet. I've been influenced by Joey Baron and John McEntire for sure. I'm still a nobody. If I become "somebody" then my influences will be more public and those people that influenced me will get credit as being influential.
When Gadd came out doing his thing, he was recognized in his community as great, but It wasnt until folks that he influenced came out that he was recognized as being influential was he?
So we're just talking speculation here. I think its just a matter of time. Which brings us to your original question ... Who? ... It could be any of the folks we've all mentioned couldnt it.
Meanwhile, back at the Drummer Cafe.......
Keith, I understood your post and I agree with you for the most part. I think the tendency here is for people to put a spin on a topic or only read half of it before shooting off a response (which I've been guilty of).
Many of today's drummers are very good. Carte Beauford was mentioned earlier in the thread. He is an amazing drummer, easily recognized by legions of non-drummers. But he hasn't done anything new, fresh or groundbreaking. He took Billy Cobham and fused it with Stewart Copeland. Is he influential and a great drummer? Sure, but he's not innovative. It's similar to the point I try to make with other musicians. Anyone can play what someone else has written. It takes a true talent to get people to play what you've written. Guitar players who can play like Joe Satriani don't impress me. Joe Satriani impresses me for hearing the music in his head and bringing it to life on his axe.
Quote from: 563 on November 17, 2003, 12:59 PM
When Gadd came out doing his thing, he was recognized in his community as great, but It wasnt until folks that he influenced came out that he was recognized as being influential was he?
No, actually he made a pretty big splash very quickly. Within the space of about a year, everybody was talking about him. Everybody wanted him on their records, and drummers were scrambling to understand and cop what he was doing. It was a pretty powerful thing to witness.
Quote from: 563 on November 17, 2003, 12:59 PMSo we're just talking speculation here. I think its just a matter of time. Which brings us to your original question ... Who? ... It could be any of the folks we've all mentioned couldnt it.
In theory, yes. But guys like Baron have been around a while. I don't know if he's going to have the impact Gadd did - frankly I doubt it. Copeland turned the world around with the Police's debut album. Maybe that's another unifying thing about the drummers I'm describing: their impact was basically
immediate.
Colaiuta had that effect, particularly when he left Zappa and moved to LA. Manu Katche had that effect on his first records with Sting and Peter Gabriel. It's a rare and potent thing.
This is a GREAT thread. This is my take on what everyone has said. I do understand your point Mr. A, but I think what the other guys were trying to say is that in today's music industry anything that isn't stamped out of a machine to sound like everyone else is not given the freedom to get out to anyone outside the very small area they may play in. I would guess that if some band came out now sounding like the Police, the record companies would tell them to get a drummer that doesnt like his drums tuned so high, and why is he playing the hi-hats so much? I dont want this to be a recording industry rant so I will leave it at that, the fact of the matter is, they only want to make money, not break musical boundries. I could be way off on all of this, but it's my opinion.
Since technology has been brought up a few times I'll say this.
Akira Jimbo & Futureman may be added to the list. They are innovative with how they use technology in music (as a drummer).
I agree sjm.
Gadd will be looked at 50 years from now as a "Baby Dodds" or Gene Krupa... as a quaint relic.
Ahhh ... Immediate impact. Again, in the jazz world, Id dare say Brian Blade has about done that. And his occasional forays into pop have helped spread that word too.
I see what youre getting at and I think maybe you are right. There isnt anyone. Shame, but at the same time not. Despite the inclination for us all to talk about cookie cutter pop music, fact is there is a tremendous window of opprotunity for creative music these days. I mean I never wouldve thought a band like Slipknot would be able to go platinum. And stuff that is essentially prog and fusion is finding its way into more mainstream sensabilities too.
Personally I think its good that there is no one hero like Gadd or Copeland. Because as we've seen here there are MANY great and unique players. And while they may not have had the impact those in the past have had, maybe its because the pool is a bit diluted, with great and unique players? And that aint a bad thing. Maybe these hero's of the past made such a huge impact because there was so little else going on that was unique at the time? Maybe the players of today arent making a huge impact because a dozen other guys are making a similar impact.
Is it better to have one groundbreaking player that influences a million others or to have several groundbreaking players that influence thousands each? I think you know where my vote lies :)
This thread is extremely irritating to me. It makes it painfully obvious that my drumming will make no impact in the music world. That sux, especially after all the time and sacrifices I've given to drumming.
This whole thread makes me feel that all my music is insignificant as well as my drumming. Frankly lots of the guys mentioned don't really turn me on so much, cause frankly the music they played on was really masturbatory for the most part. I mean I dig the drumming, but you guys get my drift.
Ya know, I havn't heard Neil Peart mentioned. He prolly doesn't have half the chops of VC or VG but his band Rush is still together! Cripe... Vinnie Calaiuta is worried about landing a Faith Hill gig and Steve Gadd is boring me to death playing with Eric Clapton.
To me, an influential drummer has to be in an influential band... PERIOD ;D
Well if anyone is up for the challenge, I'll propose the next great wave of drummers:
4 limb playing, and yes I mean with sticks between your toes so no more pedals.
I've seen armless guys play with sticks between their toes and they played with their feet like Buddy Rich played with his hands so I know it can be done. But I've yet to see a drummer who has arms and hands also pick up this idea for his feet.
So there ya go, one possible new ground-breaking drumming style that would have a major impact on drumming as we know it.
Oh, and this new style would appeal to everyone becuase you could play match grip with your hands while playing full traditional (right and left) with your feet. The perfect balance! :P
Anyone going to try it out? :)
Quote from: felix on November 17, 2003, 01:52 PM
To me, an influential drummer has to be in an influential band... PERIOD ;D
nicely put.
of course, the can is now open and worms are everywhere!
the person that got me started dreaming to be a drummer was a fictional character from a book. :P ;D ;) ;D :D 8) ??? :)
Quote from: felix on November 17, 2003, 01:52 PM
To me, an influential drummer has to be in an influential band... PERIOD ;D
It might be 'nicely put' but it happens to be bolony.
An influential drummer is just that......who ever he or she plays with!
I can't even begin to reply to this topic.
People are saying Gadd is a 'quaint relic'
Oh please ???
Quote from: chrisso on November 17, 2003, 02:39 PM
bolony.
BALOGNA!!! BALOGNA DANCE!!!!
balogna balogna balogna balogna balognapronounced ba-log-na, this traditional dance, of the Odd Sounding Lunch Meat Tribe, contains wild gyrations while jumping up and down. traditional instruments are pogo sticks, salami, and really cool ink pens that make a cool whistling noise when you take them apart and blow in one end.
Quote from: random on November 17, 2003, 02:35 PM
the person that got me started dreaming to be a drummer was a fictional character from a book. :P ;D ;) ;D :D 8) ??? :)
That's interesting.
It has nothing to do with what this thread is about, but it's interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Quote from: Mister Acrolite on November 17, 2003, 02:44 PM
That's interesting.
It has nothing to do with what this thread is about, but it's interesting. Thanks for sharing.
sounded like it might fit... :-[ :-X :'(
Quote from: random on November 17, 2003, 02:35 PM
the person that got me started dreaming to be a drummer was a fictional character from a book. :P ;D ;) ;D :D 8) ??? :)
Yeah Mr A. LOL
Now I know why there aren't any innovative drummers around.
Quote from: chrisso on November 17, 2003, 03:26 PM
Yeah Mr A. LOL
Now I know why there aren't any innovative drummers around.
and just what is that supposed to mean?
i find this thread has been more of an inspiration for me to go out and try and do something great and ground breaking....no idea what yet....ooooh i know.... :D
Well I'll stick my foot in this pool! And perhaps in my mouth! But Mr. A, I truly believe the reason we don't have any hugely influential drummers is exactly why felix mentioned. There are no new super groups! No staying power. No consistency. All the bands are around for an album or two and then they're history. No more Led Zepplins. No Beatles No nothing of the sort. The music industry has become such a flash in the pan kind of thing, no one stands out any more. Not that there aren't any outstanding players, but you name a drummer that has come up in the ranks in the past 10 years that can compare to guys like Joey Kramer, Neil Peart, Charlie Watts, and other greats that still gig and sell records. I could go on but I think the point is made. Music is fickle and most certainly so are the people and fans that buy the CD's and help good bands (and drummers) become great bands and legends. You can't be the influence if nobody's listening! No matter how great you are.
Now here's the disclaimer..... The above is just MY opinion and I fully realize that I don't have ALL the answers. But I'm pretty sure that this opinion is based on some sound reasoning. ;D...but it IS an opinion! ;)
Quote from: Mister Acrolite on November 17, 2003, 09:09 AMBut I'm not being as completely caught off guard by any of the new guys like I was when I first heard Gadd, Copeland, Bozzio, etc.
Just a thought: could it be that, with all the great drummers out there, we've come to expect more?
Another possibility is that sometimes we run through "dry spells" where there just isn't anything new. I think if you trace the history of drumset playing, you'll find large gaps, with a few exceptions, between impact players. Here's my short list (my aplogies to anyone who felt I left out some of their favorites. I did not include rock players in this because I am not very well-versed with most of them. My tastes run to classical and jazz. So, please, don't be insulted. I do realize that there were/are some impact players there, as well.):
Baby Dodds: early 1900's (Not a "quaint relic". Without him, we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.)
Chick Webb: 1930's (First true big band player who really could drive a band.)
Buddy Rich: 1940's (First player with great chops. Gene Krupa was a great showman, but he did not have the musical impact Buddy did.)
Kenny Clarke/Max Roach: 1940's (Chicken/egg argument concerning how the concept of playing time changed.)
Tony Williams: 1960's (Yes, Tony was influenced by Max/Elvin/Philly Joe, but, man, did he ever change the way drums were phrasing! Not to mention what he did later on in the late 1960's - early 1970's with his own groups.)
Finally, Steve Gadd: 1970's -
So if you take a look, except for the 1940's there were huge gaps historically. The 1940's were an anomaly because the music changed so radically (from swing to bebop; big band to small group focus).
Personally, I'm going to enjoy all the great drummers out there without being too concerned with whether they are breaking new ground or not. In fact, a lot of drummers that I absolutely admire are not what I would consider ground breakers...they're just great players, period.
Still, Mr. A, this is a terrific thread!!
Immediate impact is the key. That is why its so tough. Felix hit on something when he stated that music has imploded. I agree with him, but its only my taste in music that allows me to agree. To me, new music today consists of pop (Brittany, etc,,), punk, metal, and probably some jazz that I have no idea about. I just dont hear any music today that is different than anything else in the last 5 to 10 years and so forth the immediate impact is lost. (The last band that I thought was good when they came out was Wanderlust and they only made one record.)
I do think later on in his career, Josh Freeze will be looked up to by his peers, but it will take some time. This all opinion and i have a very short tolerance for most of the newer music out today so dont beat me up to bad. I just havent heard a drummer or any music that has been different in awhile.
Quote from: psycht on November 17, 2003, 01:25 PM
Akira Jimbo & Futureman may be added to the list.
I was thinking of suggesting that
Akira Jimbo be added to the list. He has definitely taken the whole electronic thing to a new level; definitely innovative. But who's going to play Akira Jimbo licks? The way he's impacted the drumming community and music is very different than Gadd, Cobham, etc., did it.
Personally I would not put Futureman on the list. Although he does some cool stuff, I think the instrument he uses is unique (even innovative), but what he does is pretty middle of the road; nothing groundbreaking. Besides, it's not drums but drum samples ... although he does play some drum/perc from time to time. Who else is playing the instrument he's using?
So I would vote for Jimbo ... even though there are many guys using electronics within the acoustic set, his musicianship and innovativeness is definitely unique ... and it's impacted a wide audience ... permanently.
Quote from: Mister Acrolite on November 17, 2003, 07:17 AMBut I'm still puzzled why I haven't heard a new drummer who's totally knocked me on my ear in over a decade. Are they out there, and I'm just oblivious?
Did
Trilok Gurtu come to prominence more than a decade ago?
I've been thinking about this thread on and off during the course of today, and it struck me that Trilok was the last drummer to have the "knock me on my ear" effect on me.
I suspect that, if we ever do see another drummer have a profound effect of the nature being discussed in this thread, it's going to be someone coming to the drums from somewhere else - another instrument, or another culture, or another tradition, etc. - or just someone who has been off doing his own thing for years, and we're just not hip to him (yet).
The shared influences among most of us drummers is something that's going to be tough to overcome. Think about trying to consciously come up with something new to graft into your drum set playing - just about anything I can think of (not that I'm a great visionary by any stretch of the imagination) has already been done. African drumming, Indian drumming, gamelan, classical percussion, drum corps. odd meters...it would be tough to come up with something new on such a "novelty" level - any innovation is going to have to be something pretty profound.
Or it'll just be some freakish monster who comes up out of the woodwork when we're not paying attention, someone who will find the "answer" to questions the rest of us aren't even asking...
Yes, Trilok came to prominence at the end of the 80's.
Also, visionary that he is, he hasn't made much of an impact beyond the jazz scene IMO.
I wouldn't put Jimbo in there either I'm afraid. He seems to create the most waves as a clinician. I couldn't name you a single record he's played on.
The drummers Mr A. mentioned all made an impact beyond drummersand drumming.
Some are happy to put down Gadd, but his playing on albums by Paul Simon, Rickie Lee Jones and Steely Dan all raised comments from other musicians and even radio dj's at the time.
I don't think it has anything to do with Supergroups. Gadd was never really aligned to one artist. I wouldn't have said Tony Williams ever played with a 'super group' either, although the Miles lineup was pretty SUPER.
Quote from: James Walker on November 17, 2003, 11:21 PM
Did Trilok Gurtu come to prominence more than a decade ago?
Trilok's been around for a while - he's AMAZING, no question. But I don't think he's had a major impact on a lot of drummers. In fact, I'd be surprised if very many Cafe members are even familiar with his work.
Coincidentally, I have a clip of Trilok currently featured on my
licks from hell page - great stuff.
Quote from: BBJones on November 17, 2003, 12:32 PM
Do you know any Steve Gadd licks? No
Do you know any Stewart Copeland grooves? Yes
Any Elvin Jones ride cymbal rhythms? No
Any Tony Williams flam licks? No
Any Bozzio ostinatos? Yes
Any Deen Castronovo 2-handed ride rhythms? No
Any Vinnie Colaiuta time superimposition techniques? No
Any Manu Katche linear grooves? No
Posting yes or no to any of those question has no impact on what I actually play. Just becuase I can't recognize a groove or lick from one particular drummer does not indicate whether or not I play like them. I say no in most cases becuase I would not be able to put the lick to the name, however I have heard most of these players at some point.
What I'm getting at is that it would serve you well to STUDY these drummers, and then incorporate their influence into your own playing. By focusing so much on metal and not really digging deep into the playing of other masters, you limit yourself.
Quote from: BBJones on November 17, 2003, 12:32 PM
I take influence from as wide a variety of drummers as possible and generally do not try to imitate any particular drummer. As well as getting into metal recently, I have only recently started paying attention to what the drummer's name is. I am influenced by the people you mention but do not study them directly.
And that's what I recommend you start doing: study them directly.
Quote from: BBJones on November 17, 2003, 12:32 PMI also currently work with an instructor on jazz and latin rythym and continually try my hardest to expand my drumming abilities from all styles. I most definitely do not stay tunnelled into metal drumming, but currently that is they style I play in and try to come up with my own style of incorporating everything I know while still making my drumming fit the music. And yes, the band I'm in are very conciously trying to create a new breed of metal that isn't just (boom-chick-boom-chick-boom-chick) at 200 miles an hour. There is of course much more to it just as there is no end to reinventing everything with drumming.
This is good news, and shows you are open-minded. However, as important as it is to take lessons, study musical styles, drum books, etc., it's my opinion that serious drummers should also actively study the playing of world-class drummers. How they compose their drum parts. How they lock with the bass player. How they support the vocalist or soloist. You won't find that stuff in drum books, and your teacher can only open the door for you.
Take some time, collect some CDs, and study the great masters of drumming. It will help you more than you can imagine.
Ok, I'm in a better mood today. This was a pretty heavy thread for a monday.
I have no idea what the next big thing is or what it's going to be. I'm just not that hip.
Lots of great insights from everyone though.
Quote from: chrisso on November 18, 2003, 01:47 AMI wouldn't put Jimbo in there either I'm afraid. He seems to create the most waves as a clinician. I couldn't name you a single record he's played on.
Maybe you are right ... but I disagree that you have to be with a "supergroup" or even be playing on other individual's albums in order to cause"change", which is the premise for this thread. The question, once again was ...
Where is the next drummer who'll come along and blow our minds with their unique sound and vision?Bozzio didn't do it with the bands that he's played with ... he's done it with his solo career ... what he's done in clinics and solo performances more than what he's done on record ... in my opinion. So Jimbo
could fit into this scenario, and is not disqualified because he's not playing on albums. If the drummer "blows our minds" and/or "has a unique sound and vision" ... AND ... they've done this recently, then they fit the criteria. BUT ... does he have a signature sound? Is there a "stamp" that they place on what they do? For Jimbo, probably not. He's incredible, but unless you SEE him play, you can't really appreciate what he's doing. The other side to that is, however, that the technique needed to pull off what he does is amazing. It doesn't sound special until you realize that he's playing EVERYTHING; a one man band. I can still see Peter Erskine's face, shaking his head in amazement after witnessing (as I did) Jimbo's performance at PASIC 2001.
I do think Trilok fits in here ... although he's not new. He really brought the use of drums & percussion into the same arena ... as well as the
hybrid kit. The reality is that this is nothing new ... the early drumset was a mixture of what we now consider drums and percussion ... but using it to the degree that Trilok has, well, it's unique ... and certainly blew MY mind when I heard him years ago.
There's nothing new under the sun ... so it seems ... hence the vast lack of new and upcoming innovators. I think that we will see a real slow down ... and that technology will be the sole ingredient need to have any type of push forward. Having said that ... it really makes me appreciate drummers like
Bill Stewart, even
Stanton Moore, because their innovativeness doesn't come from huge set-ups or a dozen foot pedals. Their "stamp" comes from the basic raw sound that they achieve on minimal kit set-ups.
Quote from: Bartman on November 18, 2003, 07:15 AM
Where is the next drummer who'll come along and blow our minds with their unique sound and vision?
Bozzio didn't do it with the bands that he's played with ... he's done it with his solo career ... what he's done in clinics and solo performances more than what he's done on record ... in my opinion.
While I agree that Terry totally bowled over the drumming world when he emerged as a solo artist, he also was a huge trailblazer when he was in bands.
With the RotoTom kit he used with Zappa and Missing Persons, I bet Bozzio is responsible for the sale of more RotoToms than any other single drummer. (I bought a set after hearing Spring Session M!)
Then, he took a total left turn, and created that minimalist electronic kit that was a huge influence on both the sound and physical design of electronic percussion instruments.
Bozzio is a freak - he's been reinventing himself, and with it, influencing the world of drumming - consistently since he was a KID. I've got the Zappa video "Baby Snakes," where Terry can be seen in his late teens or early 20's, playing things on double-bass that other drummers are only starting to learn now, 25 years later. He is sort of the Picasso of drums to me - a completely original artist, steeped in traditional skills, but blessed with a vision that takes him into another realm, years ahead of most of his contemparies.
Quote from: Mister Acrolite on November 18, 2003, 07:42 AMBozzio is a freak - he's been reinventing himself ...
Been reinventing himself? LOL
The dude changes annually! And not just his set-up or approach, but his LOOK! I don't think I've seen him in two Modern Drummer issues and have the same look (hair, clothes, piercing, etc.). I'm judging him or saying that's bad ... just confirming that he's a freak! ROFL
I still enjoy hearing his playing on the Brecker Brothers album,
Heavy Metal BeBop.
Quote from: Mister Acrolite on November 18, 2003, 07:42 AM
With the RotoTom kit he used with Zappa and Missing Persons, I bet Bozzio is responsible for the sale of more RotoToms than any other single drummer...
Maybe second in sales right after Alex Van Halen. ;)
How about Tommy Lee to add to the list? I don't think I need to mention why...
Quote...where's the next big thing? But I'm still puzzled why I haven't heard a new drummer who's totally knocked me on my ear in over a decade. Are they out there, and I'm just oblivious?
I personally thought "Animal" from the Muppets was as influential as any of the Drumming Master's you mentioned...
Quote from: BBJones on November 18, 2003, 08:04 AM
Maybe second in sales right after Alex Van Halen. ;)
How about Tommy Lee to add to the list? I don't think I need to mention why...
Please do mention why ... because I don't see why he should be included. 8)
Quote from: Bartman on November 18, 2003, 08:23 AM
Please do mention why ... because I don't see why he should be included. 8)
<sarcasm>
Well, there were the early Motley Crue days when he inspired all of us to look as much like a woman as poss....well, not
me, but, well...
Then later, around Dr. Feelgood, he had this HUGE bassdrum! NOBODY had done THAT before....well, except Bonham...and maybe a few others...ahem...
Then he played this wild drum solo where he was suspended upside down! All drummers ran out and attached their drums to the ceilings of their rehearsal spaces and strapped themselves in....no?
Then he made a video of him and his hot wife that leaked to the internet, and at first it pissed him off, then he started making money from it, inspiring all male drummers that they too could get a hot wife/girlfriend...no? maybe? not even a little?
:P
</sarcasm>
Well sarcasm aside :) ...
As far as I can remember, he was the first drummer to really make playing more about the show of playing that the skill. Apart from him being extremely solid and playing exactly what the music needed, all the stick twirling and yes the spinning drum cage were very innovative imo.
I'm sure others have been around doing similar things, but for me and everyone growing up with me that I knew, Tommy Lee was *the first* to make it "the thing to do".
Since him, there were many flashy drummers as well as many drummers trying new cage/rotating drumset ideas for solos.
That sort of raises another question, who gets credit for being innovative? The person who came up with something, or the one who made it popular?
Look Mr A, 2 posts in a row and nothing about metal! ;)
Quote from: BBJones on November 18, 2003, 09:01 AM
Well sarcasm aside :) ...
As far as I can remember, he was the first drummer to really make playing more about the show of playing that the skill.
Not by a long shot. Gene Krupa comes to mind, as do many other drummers of days gone by.
Tommy's a good rock drummer, and an excellent entertainer.
But what he plays has not changed the way we play. Maybe he's the first guy YOU heard or saw doing what he does, but he's not the first to do it.
Yes, he's been an influence on many drummers. So has Lars. So has Travis Barker, Peter Criss, etc.
But they have not created NEW ways to play the drums, which are then adopted by countless other drummers. That's what this post is about, a point I seem to be failing at trying to communicate.
THis is a great thread Mr. A. Sorry I'm so late!
This is an opinion based on potential. A lot of good players have an experience at a point in their career where a light comes on and they take their talents to a level most people don't have. With Gadd it may have been The Leprechaun sessions with Chick Corea. I think the listed players below are unique enough, talented enough, and busy enough to become great.
Matt Chamberlain,
Chris Frazier,
Adam Deitch,
Josh Freese,
Chad Wackerman,
David Batiste, Jr,
and...
Carter Beauford (It'll be interesting to see what he accomplishes post DM Band)
Quote from: Mister Acrolite on November 18, 2003, 09:11 AM
But they have not created NEW ways to play the drums, which are then adopted by countless other drummers. That's what this post is about, a point I seem to be failing at trying to communicate.
Here we go agreeing to disagree then... I think that is exactly what Tommy Lee created, a new way to play the drums. What I think he brought to the drumming world was to be more of a full entertainer than just a drummer with crazy chops/feel. I haven't see any vids of these old gray haired legends spinning around in full cages doing a drum solo. That sure sounds "new" to me and has been continually copied by many drummers since.
So what if he wasn't the first to twirl a stick, back to my other question then of who gets credit for being the innovator. I'd love to see some clips of Gene Krupa spinning sticks for an entire song where it was more the focus of his playing than the actual drumming...
Your point is clear, you're just not getting responses that you agree with. :)
Hey what about the guy from Def Leppard? Innovation out of necessity. Not sure if he had much influence on a lot of drummers or not, but he sure did create good use of a ton of electronics and pedals...
Quote from: BBJones on November 18, 2003, 09:23 AM
Here we go agreeing to disagree then... I think that is exactly what Tommy Lee created, a new way to play the drums. What I think he brought to the drumming world was to be more of a full entertainer than just a drummer with crazy chops/feel. I haven't see any vids of these old gray haired legends spinning around in full cages doing a drum solo. That sure sounds "new" to me and has been continually copied by many drummers since.
The one "innovation" I'll grant Tommy is the spinning cage, although Keith Emerson had done the same with a Hammond organ a decade earlier. So props to Tommy (or his mechanics and fabricators).
Beyond that, you need a firmer grasp of drumset history to argue this topic effectively.
Well, glad to see a limited metal player like myself could get you to see something about a drummer you refused to recognize... but I guess I'll leave your thread now as per your request... ::)
You cannot be serious about Tommy Lee.
:o
By that reckoning Brittny Spears is one of the most innovative singers today.
Quote from: BBJones on November 18, 2003, 09:37 AM
Well, glad to see a limited metal player like myself could get you to see something about a drummer you refused to recognize... but I guess I'll leave your thread now as per your request... ::)
I never asked you to leave. I do, however, ask you to read my initial post, and decide if your recent posts are truly relevant to it. It is NOT a list of "what drummers have been influential over the years." Tommy ABSOLUTELY belongs on that list.
But Tommy has created no rhythm, no technique, no sticking pattern, no piece of equipment (other than something that manipulates the stage he's playing on) that A) didn't already exist and B) was subsequently adopted as part of a pro drummer's vocabulary. That said, I still think he's an excellent drummer.
And I recommend you delve into the history of this instrument and those who play it - it is clear from your posts that you have room to grow in that area (as we all do).
Quote from: BBJones on November 18, 2003, 09:23 AM
Here we go agreeing to disagree then... I think that is exactly what Tommy Lee created, a new way to play the drums. What I think he brought to the drumming world was to be more of a full entertainer than just a drummer with crazy chops/feel. I haven't see any vids of these old gray haired legends spinning around in full cages doing a drum solo. That sure sounds "new" to me and has been continually copied by many drummers since.
Two words:
Lionel Hampton.Most people remember him as a vibraphonist, but he was also a drummer (and a pretty good one, at that), and he was as much about putting on a great show - including visuals (admittedly, no cage) - as he was about making great music. Not bad for an old dude...
QuoteI haven't see any vids of these old gray haired legends spinning around in full cages doing a drum solo.
The first drummer to play spinning upside-down was Buddy Rich. I think it was back in 1972 on a TV show called "I've Got A Secret".
The kit was on a platform, raised by a forklift from behind a curtain. It was really jerky, but he got spinning! This is on one of his videos, although I can't remember the name of it.
The Tommy Lee spinning cage is a nice gimmick (I saw it live), and I like Joey Jordison's (Slipknot) vertical rotating drum riser. That might be more of a performance or live show innovation than a drumming innovation.
Anyone remember Cornelis Johannes (Cesar) Zuiderwijk from Golden Earring? In 1983 he had invented a "drum jacket" that he would put on and play during his drum solo. Awesome.
Quote from: Mister Acrolite on November 18, 2003, 09:11 AM
But they have not created NEW ways to play the drums, which are then adopted by countless other drummers. That's what this post is about, a point I seem to be failing at trying to communicate.
I get your point, and I agree totally. I think that a lot of it has to do with the music being ladled out to the masses these days. Yes, Bozzio is amazing, and people outside of drumming will recognize him from Missing Persons and perhaps even Zappa, but his solo stuff isn't as well known (outside drumworld) and you're not going to hear ostinatos like his played in Top 40 music anytime soon, imo. Gadd and Copeland I agree with wholeheartedly, as their approach made a significant impact on music for the masses, and I'd bet at least 90% of drummers playing music that is "ladled to the masses" would list them as influences.
Maybe music has to change in order for someone else to come along that changes drumming. Otherwise, where's the practical application? We can't all play clubs w/ 30 piece drum kits, or banks of electronics in order to "be like Mike" (so to speak). Nor can we all approach our local symphony orchestras and ask to play "Suite for 5-Piece Drumset and Orchestra in D Minor".
The only changes I've seen have been ergonomic, with the teachings of Freddie Gruber to Weckl, Steve Smith, Neil Peart, etc. They've completely changed the way they setup and approach the kit since studying w/ him. But it hasn't musically changed the landscape of drumming.
You're looking for a Charlie Parker in a world of Kenny G's! Talk about a needle in the proverbial haystack.
Great discussion!
Quote from: Mister Acrolite on November 18, 2003, 09:44 AM
And I recommend you delve into the history of this instrument and those who play it - it is clear from your posts that you have room to grow in that area (as we all do).
Mr. A, I think you're getting way too upset about this topic. I just read all the postings start to finish, and I can say that everybody gets the topic. You made your point somewhere at the top of page 2.
I think after 60+ posts of candidates you don't agree with, it seems pretty certain that we (or you, in particular) are just going to have to wait to discover the newest pioneer for whom you're looking.
Also, Is there some unseen amount of drumming history knowledge that you're using as a litmus test for posters to this thread? People are going to start taking their toys and going home.
...objectively,
Dave
We sorta bounce things around here and expand upon them... to know Mr A is to know he isn't condescending, nor does he have that kind of attitude. This is a tough topic to tackle with no real answer, but the stimuli it provides is a benefit in itself.
I agree with Felix......but I'll take it further.
I haven't found Mr A to be unreasonable, in fact I've been gritting my teeth at some of the suggestions of innovators. Some people's idea of a contribution is to list their favourite drummers for example.
I have to say unfortunately that it's a sad reflection on drummers, forums, the internet or whatever, that a thread about innovators has boiled down to stick twirling and spinning risers.
Quote from: dwcampbell1 on November 18, 2003, 10:08 AM
Mr. A, I think you're getting way too upset about this topic. I just read all the postings start to finish, and I can say that everybody gets the topic. You made your point somewhere at the top of page 2.
I think after 60+ posts of candidates you don't agree with, it seems pretty certain that we (or you, in particular) are just going to have to wait to discover the newest pioneer for whom you're looking.
I disagree that everbody "gets" the topic, but I blame that on my inability to express it well, and on the obvious differences in A) what we each consider to be essential elements of our drumming vocabulary, and B) where we think those elements came from.
But hey, that's the fun of these discussions - you learn how other people see things.
Quote from: dwcampbell1 on November 18, 2003, 10:08 AM
Also, Is there some unseen amount of drumming history knowledge that you're using as a litmus test for posters to this thread? People are going to start taking their toys and going home.
It's not my intention to condescend nor offend. However, I have a hard time not responding to statements that I know are made in ignorance.
But no, there's no DAT (Drummer's Aptitude Test) for grading this stuff. ;) All that is required is common sense and an awareness of one's own limitations. For example, I'll not leap into a discussion of Baby Dodds' right hand technique - I lack the knowledge to do so. And I also can't tell you which KISS albums Peter Criss played on, and which ones Eric Carr and Eric Singer did (not to mention which ones Anton Fig ghost-drummed on).
But as an avid observer of the last 35 years of drumset playing, I'd hope my insights and observations about the trends I've witnessed might be helpful to some. Apparently not to others.
Please keep your toys here, and keep playing. ;D That's what the Cafe is for. I started this thread, so I've participated in it with a somewhat proprietary approach. But the Cafe is wide open for all to explore, whether your playing was shaped more by Terry Bozzio or Rikki Rockett. ;)
I've thought about those mad drummers I know locally. These folks could be future innovators, or the next big thing:
http://www.thedrummerswebsite.com]Jeff Lemke : I have witnessed him playing some incredible stuff. When I ask him to slow it down (and he does), I still listen in amazement. He is an incredible talent, whether it's odd times or 4/4.
http://www.nocide.com/photos/pages/DSCN0812.htm]Kenny Borril : Drummer for http://www.nocide.com]NOCIDE . I have often referred to him as "The Keith Moon of our Time." His drumming, combined with his showmanship, is quite the spectacle.
These are two drummers I know who may very well become......
... THE NEXT... BIG.... THING (ing ing ing)
DUNT - DA - DUHHHHH!!!!
Keith Moon! Now there was an innovator.
One long fill, with maybe the odd bit of time thrown in.
Steve Jansen (Japan) was another innovator. In the 80's he tossed away his hi hats and played all his grooves between the toms, snare and bass drum. This was in a top 10 band as well, not prog rock or fusion. Oh yeah, all his cymbals were China's too.
I don't think anyone's made the case for any serious innovators in the last 10 years.
I'll jump in again ... because not everyone is getting the topic.
Mentioning people that are dead, people that gave innovative ideas decades ago, etc., well ... that's not the topic. It's about NEW individuals.
And I have to agree with Mr. A about needing to know some drumming history in order to argue any points. Even as James Walker mentioned, Lionel Hampton was standing on his drums (ie. floor tom) before anyone else ... and Gene Krupa was "Mr. Showboat" and probably was the first one to "put on a show".
I believe the thread is to discuss who we think is a recent or upcoming innovator who is establishing something new ... something that others will hold on to, modeling their own playing after, in ways never done before.
P.S. I know upset, and Mr. A is not upset; he's just having to clarify again and again ... which gets frustrating for him. I can say this from experience. ;D
Quote from: chrisso on November 18, 2003, 11:40 AMSteve Jansen (Japan) was another innovator. In the 80's he tossed away his hi hats and played all his grooves between the toms, snare and bass drum. This was in a top 10 band as well, not prog rock or fusion. Oh yeah, all his cymbals were China's too.
One of my fave's. And indeed an innovator and incredibly unique voice on the instrument. But unfortunately he had little or no impact on drumming as a whole.
Granted this could be my American perspective. Japan (the band) was not at all successfull in the states, but was quite so in Europe and Asia.
Which brings up another point. Id like to think that the "drumming community" is global. But is it? Did those players who made HUGE impacts on drumming primarily make them in the States or were they global? Are there folks changing the face of drumming in Eastern Europe but who are unrecognized here? etc?
Quote from: Bartman on November 18, 2003, 12:09 PM
I'll jump in again ... because not everyone is getting the topic.
Mentioning people that are dead, people that gave innovative ideas decades ago, etc., well ... that's not the topic. It's about NEW individuals.
I get the topic.
I said what I said to try and mention some positive individuals (Moon and Jansen) as an antidote to Tommy Lee and Stanton Moore being named this weeks winners in the innovator poll.
563,
I think your absolutely right about Steve Jansen.
A few people have done the no hi-hat thing (Manu Katche, Jansen, Marotta and other drummers with Peter Gabriel), but it's never really caught on.
As far as worldwide impact goes. I think an innovative drummer will have most impact at 'western music's' epicentre (which is the UK and USA in my opinion).
There's been some very interesting European drummers, japanese too, but it's often hard for them to find recognition until they work with UK or American acts.
There are probably extremely innovative drummers in Africa and Sth America right now, but who knows what they are up to? They certainly aren't registering on my radar.
Quote from: chrisso on November 18, 2003, 02:48 PM
As far as worldwide impact goes. I think an innovative drummer will have most impact at 'western music's' epicentre (which is the UK and USA in my opinion).
There's been some very interesting European drummers, japanese too, but it's often hard for them to find recognition until they work with UK or American acts.
There are probably extremely innovative drummers in Africa and Sth America right now, but who knows what they are up to? They certainly aren't registering on my radar.
Canada tends to fall off the radar, too. There are some GREAT drummers there who are barely known in the US.
Quote from: Mister Acrolite on November 17, 2003, 11:38 AM
I think some people are misinterpreting my post, perhaps because of the title.
I'm not talking about what the PUBLIC perceives as the "next big thing," like Britney Spears or Blink 182 or whatever.
And I'm not just talking about drummers who have amazing chops, and identifiable styles. They keep emerging, and I think more of them are emerging than ever.
I'm talking about the tiny handful of drummers who literally come along and change how we think about drumming and its role in music. Guys without whom we would lack some key parts of our own musical vocabulary.
First off, this is a GREAT thread. VERY insightful and very well conducted. I don't think anyone is being condescending or acting off-base.
Anyway, in addition to the quote above, Mr. A also stated in his first post:
"But I'm still puzzled why I haven't heard a new drummer who's totally knocked me on my ear in over a decade. Are they out there, and I'm just oblivious?"
What I tried to do in my post on the first page was address the topic as I understood it. I was wondering if I understood it correctly in the first place and I was also wondering if anyone agreed or disagreed with my comments/opinions.
To summarize my post on pg. 1, the answer to Mr. A's question, in my opinion, was "No--there are not any drummers that I can think of who fit the criteria you have presented." There haven't been anymore to add to the "tiny handful" in addition to the ones Mr. A listed in his initial post.
Next, I stated the reasons why I felt the answer to the question was "No". The reasoning I'm ultimately getting at is not only do I feel we have not seen any players as such since the aforementioned ones from Mr. A's list, but we will never seen any such again. The reasons for that is because of the ever-evolving and rapidly changing environment and mediums to which music and drumming are presented to the universe (see my post on pg. 1).
Someone pointed out that in order to have these type of "impact" players again, it would have to be a completely different level or type of impact based on our current musical mediums and environment. I agree with that and would say that that confirms an opinion stating that we'll never see "impact" players again like we have up to this point.
Thoughts? Comments? Mr. A? I was just wondering if anyone else shared this direction of thinking...
Quote from: chrisso on November 18, 2003, 02:48 PM
There's been some very interesting European drummers, japanese too, but it's often hard for them to find recognition until they work with UK or American acts.
There are probably extremely innovative drummers in Africa and Sth America right now, but who knows what they are up to? They certainly aren't registering on my radar.
That's very true! You should all check out Alex Frazão, a great Portuguese drummer... he's got an unbelievable feel when it comes to mixing jazz with latin stuff!
To get back to this after Mr. Acrolite redefined what it was he was looking for. Dave Grohl would probably be the only one of the initial five I listed that has had any impact not only on drumming but the scope of music and what came after it. Before Grohl a drummer in hard rock was measured by how many kick drums he could fit on his riser and how high he could tease his hair, regardless of his badass chops. Grohl took a 4-piece kit and just beat them hard and evenly with a songwriter's knack for inventing to perfect part to make the song continuously explode dynamically. He's the one.
But I was only half-kidding when I mentioned the Akai sampler. The drums on most of the music that makes it to top 40 pop radio, hard rock radio and country really aren't designed to stand out as a unique voice in the music. No one with the throaty drum sound of Bonham or the splashes of Manu and Stewart. The stamp now comes from the sound of the producer and what they are able to coax from their samplers, especially in R&B and pop music. Timbaland has his own unique sound, Dr. Dre, the Neptunes, Tricky/Massive Attack, etc. It is the timbre of the '60s recordings fed back and tweaked through Pro Tools, it's the stutter-step of the 808 with percussive vocals. Rhythmically the '90s has replaced the drummer in the studio for the most part. There are still great drummers recording killer parts and tones, and certainly the live drummer is ubiquitous in nearly every musical setting. But the easy access to the drum loop and the ability to cut them up has made virtually ANYONE with the technical know-how able to make interesting beats and tones. Heck, the aforementioned Johnny Rabby and ?uestlove have made careers out of emulating the Emulator. Drum and bass afterall is only Bernard Purdie loops sped-up and edited. Not that this is necessarily a bad thing. But that's where I hear the true rhythmic innovations of the past ten-plus years.
PS: Favorite non hihat drummers have to be Grant Hart and Jerry Marotta.
Has anyone mentioned John Bonham? I'm not really big on drumming history but the first time I started listening to led zepplin, I instantly started hearing so many things in the drumming (and songwriting as a whole) that you hear today. Realizing they were back in the 60's/70's, I could instantly see how much influence John Bonham has had on drummers over the years. IMO he was a rock drumming pioneer and much of the contemporary "rock drumming vocabulary" can be traced back to him and a few other innovators.
Anyway, for modern drummers, I definitely think Horacio "El Negro" Hernandez is making a new uber-latin style with the left foot clave patterns with afro-cuban rhythms in latin-jazz music. Crazy skills, amazing independence in that guy, he's pushing the limits into new territory. That's the only example I can think of right now...
Quote from: newbeat on November 18, 2003, 06:30 PM
Has anyone mentioned John Bonham?
Bonham is
absolutely one of the biggies, and left an indelible stamp on music. That kinda went without saying.
But this thread focuses on who's NEXT. In other words, will anybody else ever have as much of an influence on music as a drummer like Bonham? - THAT is the question.
We shall see...
QuoteAnyone remember Cornelis Johannes (Cesar) Zuiderwijk from Golden Earring? In 1983 he had invented a "drum jacket" that he would put on and play during his drum solo. Awesome.
I saw Joey Kramer and Mic Fleetwood do drum solos, live in concert, with those drum jackets on and I thought it was the most retarded thing that i've ever seen. Sorry, YMMV. (I like Zuiderwijk's stuff alot though)
I cant see into the future but if i were to guess about an idea or innovation that might hold in the drumming field, it would be the combination of acoustic drums and electronics that would help the handicapped (or non-handicapped) "ala" Rick Allen. I can imagine a patent or something on that line coming out of ideas when Def Leppard finally hangs it up (they should have,,,,,,nevermind). He could devote himself to produce kits that could help the less fortunate play again and it could actually etch his name down as one of the great innovators. Again, I cant see into the future and thats what makes this thread so tuff. Where's Ms.Cleo when you need her?
JOHN HENRY BONHAM!!!!
Aaah, yeah ok, he's been dead a long time.... And Mitch Mitchel, Bill Ward, and Tommy Aldridge haven't done a lot lately. Most of us have worked up this type of vamp over the last twenty years.
Byron from Pennywise has inspired me lately. I believe this punk style foot work will become part of every drummer's vocabularly ... even drummers that hardly use both feet will eventually get hep to it.
Also this hip hop thing, bass & drum ... we all gotta get that down right?
I got your answer, Mr. A.
It's YOU ... and 563, and chrisso, and felix, and Bart ... and anyone that's reading this great thread.
No one knows what's coming next. Think about it ... is there any type of music or drumming that you enjoy now that you NEVER thought you'd listen to?
Lots of great drummers, present and past, being mentioned here. Obviously, not one is, or was, the greatest. Everyone has something to offer, whether it's your bag or not.
That's the beauty of it. It's always a search, and the discovery is the reward. And when another's talent inspires you or I do go to the next step, that's the deal.
The next big thing is right here, right now.
OK, so what do I win?
I think a good mention would have to go to ?uestlove also. If you dont listen to his drumming and know its him you would guess its a drum machine. Im not a huge fan of his bands but I know when I first heard him and then read it was all just him and drums I was impressed, but is it innovative to be able to imitate with acoustic drums a machine that was made to imitate acoustic drums? I guess the only ones that really stand out to me as being close to who we are looking for are Danny Carey and Carter Bueford, but I dont think either is really truly bringing new stuff in. Ok OK, enough I will just do it, give me a couple of days and I will turn the drumming community on its ear. All I need is some duct tape, an empty missle silo and some creamed corn. Check back with me in a few days.
By the way, anyone have some duct tape I can borrow?
I think what we're talking about is the guy that comes along and raises the bar for everyone.
I'd say there are several recently, most already mentioned like Horacio Hernandez, Johnny Rabb, Danny Carey, you know, guys that send us all back to the practice room.
Quote from: bongo on November 18, 2003, 09:47 PM
I'd say there are several recently, most already mentioned like Horacio Hernandez, Johnny Rabb, Danny Carey, you know, guys that send us all back to the practice room.
Mr A was talking about drummers who made a wider impact I believe. (I could be wrong there)
Anyway, I have slipped behind in my listening I admit, but I haven't heard anything from the 3 you mentioned.
I think it's easy to live in a bubble of drum forums, drum clinics, trade shows, music schools and think some things are having a bigger impact than they are.
I can tell you that 99.99% of people in the UK have never heard of Galactic for example.
Congratulations to Mr A for lighting up the drummercafe forum like no one else in recent times. 8)
a lot of drummers are better then they appear to be, especially rock drummers because the kind of music they play doesn't let them show off much and often the guitarists dont write much outside of 4/4, so there could easily be some incredibley original drummer sitting around in some rock band playing phil rudd style drumming...i'd have to say one thing danny carey has done that's original is his use of electric drums, and you could say the way they turn geographical shapes into rhythms and stuff and the fact that a lot of heavy occult maths goes into a lot of tool's music is original...or you could just say it's too weird and not really related to actually playing the drums enough to actually count.. *shrugs*
Yeah, I'm definitely better than I appear to be. ;D
Anyway, interesting points.......
kinda shooting in the dark, but...
i think its the explosion of the drummer/multi-instrumentalist.
guys like Dave Grohl, Tommy Lee, Marco Minnemann, etc. those who happen to specialize in drums, but also branch out into writing all aspects of their music.
a very subtle, yet wholly subversive way of shaping the way we drum.
Quote from: bongo on November 18, 2003, 09:47 PM
I think what we're talking about is the guy that comes along and raises the bar for everyone.
Not necessarily. Its about who is out there taking modern drumming to the next step (not level). Being innovative with their style, becomming an infulence in the same manner as Gadd has done to many or how Copeland has inspired others. Being an increadble player isn't the focus, its about being origional and how that origionality has been used to infulence others.
(that's my take at least)
It's simple. Many drummers that have been mentioned here are great and influential. But they aren't doing anything new. They don't have an impact on the way a vast majority of drummers play. Bonham, Gadd, Weckl, Vinnie, these guys aren't just great, influential drummers. They not only changed the way drummers approached their instrument, they changed the entire industry's expectations of drummers. They impacted the industry and art form in ways that countless other drummers didn't. And some of them continue to do so today.
I think the only person that may fit this catergory in the past 20 years would be Jeff Pocaro. We could debate the "what if he didn't die" question, but that would be pointless. Even in his relatively short career, he made an impact. His studio work was highly regarded and raised the bar for drummers at that time.
Quote from: Bartman on November 18, 2003, 12:09 PM
I'll jump in again ... because not everyone is getting the topic.
I believe the thread is to discuss who we think is a recent or upcoming innovator who is establishing something new ... something that others will hold on to, modeling their own playing after, in ways never done before.
That is why I mentioned
Danny Carey with his music background I think he is just getting started.. If he can do other things other than TOOL and PLC maybe do some jazz I think he has a chance to show us something fresh.. IMHO, YMMV and all that BS.
And I don't hear Bill Bruford in his playing at all!
dw
Quote from: chrisso on November 19, 2003, 12:26 AM
I can tell you that 99.99% of people in the UK have never heard of Galactic for example.
Not sure why this is relevant... Hell, many of the names mentioned thus far are new to me... does that make these folks less influencial in the drumming community, as a whole? I doubt it.
I firmly believe that innovators will bubble up to the surface long before they are known to 99.99% of the UK... the USA... the globe. Noteriety does not an influential musician make. If it did, Eminem would be considered the second coming...
Just my $.02.
QuoteIts about who is out there taking modern drumming to the next step (not level).
Just gotta figure out what the next step may be.
Quote from: agogobil on November 18, 2003, 08:20 PMIt's YOU 563
[size=-2]edited for self egrandizing puposes[/size]
I was going to say its me ... but that sounded so egocentric I thought it might ruin my humble image.
Actually Im beginning to think Redchapter might be on to something with Grohl. Obviously it hasnt been viewed from far enough away to say for certain, but I do think theres some validity to that.
Think about it, pop music changed when Nirvana broke. Sure, Guns and Roses was a step ahead but they were still rooted in LA glam. Nirvana was something new (to mainstream) and changed the face of it. Grohl was in the chair when it happened. He's influenced countless drummers (whether they admit it or not), and helped change the face of music, which changes the face of drumming.
How many of you whove been doing covers for a while found themselves including Nirvana songs in thier list?
Will his chops be copied? Maybe later if they arent already. But Id guess (since Im not a session guy) that there are many a producer who have and will continue to say "Can you play it like Dave Grohl?"
He gets my vote. A far cry from my fave drummer thats for sure, but I see and hear what I see and hear.
Quote from: 563 on November 19, 2003, 10:55 AMActually Im beginning to think Redchapter might be on to something with Grohl. Obviously it hasnt been viewed from far enough away to say for certain, but I do think theres some validity to that.
I don't think Grohl is the answer to Mr_A's original question, for a couple of reasons.
1) Mainly, the "next" part of it - didn't Nirvana first hit almost ten years ago?
2) Maybe I'm listening for the wrong things, but the kinds of drummers cited in this thread by Mr_A and others have struck me as prompting one of the following reactions from other drummers and musicians in general:
- "How did he do that?"
- "Where in the world did he come up with that idea?"
...and in the case of some (Gadd, Vinnie, Copeland, a.o.), both the ideas and the technical application of them were revolutionary. I'm not knocking Grohl or Nirvana, but of the Nirvana recordings I've heard, I haven't heard anything in his drumming that struck me as groundbreaking in terms of musical ideas or technical facility. His own style? Effective drumming? Sure - but that's not what this thread is about.
Yes, Nirvana changed the popular landscape when it came to music. Yes, lots of drummers have been influenced by their music, including Grohl's drumming - but unless he comes up with something new
now, I don't think he'll qualify as the
next "big thing."
IMHO, etc.
PS Some others have mentioned Akira Jimbo and other drummers who have incorporated electronics into their setup. As innovative as some of their work is, I don't see it having a massive influence ala Gadd or Copeland - there are too many drummers who want absolutely nothing to do with electronics, either because they've tried it and decided it wasn't for them, or because they just have an inherent bias against instruments you plug into the wall.
If we do have another visionary on the horizon, it's going to have to be someone who is successful in a number of different genres - someone who shows that his "thing" can be applied in jazz, rock, pop, etc., as Gadd and Colaiuta did, or whose music has such strong musical sensibilities that those in other genres will appreciate it (like jazz musicians appreciating Copeland's work). A guy might turn one genre on its ear, but so many musicians nowadays look at music with aural blinders, they're often ignorant of, or indifferent to, innovations in genres outside of the style they play.
Again, IMYO, YMMV, etc., etc., etc.
You know I've been thinking and I'm going to take a guess at what I think is gonna be the next "big" thing.
I saw a NY drummer a few months ago, young guy named Matt Dubrowski who reminded me of a sorta Bill Stewart type of style. What Matt did and does with Alex Skolnic is "jazz" up rock tunes and I mean authentically jazz them up so it turns into this fast fusion (but not the meandering Miles Davis Bitches Brew type stuff) with slick and melodic changes. So what you have is ripping rock ala jam band ala hard core swing/bop. The kid then throws in latin rhythyms (going against the triple meter) and uses them for fills. The ingredients are there for any accomplished or hell, not so accomplished player to stretch the limits.
I just think what those guys (Alex Skolnik Trio) are doing is so undeniably GOOD and HIP that if a resurgence of swing/jazz ever did come around which it will ( because music is cyclical, even pop music I think) then we should be in for some innovative drumming hitting the mainstream again.
Just my two cents ;D
Quote from: drwalker on November 19, 2003, 09:50 AM
That is why I mentioned Danny Carey with his music background I think he is just getting started.. If he can do other things other than TOOL and PLC maybe do some jazz I think he has a chance to show us something fresh.. IMHO, YMMV and all that BS.
And I don't hear Bill Bruford in his playing at all!
dw
First, I'm a huge Tool fan. I seen them 2x and I think Danny Carey is easily my favorite drummer of the past 10 years. But to say you can't hear Bruford in his playing ??? Even DC will admit to the huge influence BB has on him and that it is evident in his playing.
i haven't been playing drums long enough, and therefore don't feel like i even qualify to answer, but in recent years i've seen three guys that made me really stop and think about what playing drums is all about, and what is possible on our instrument. those three are gary husband, thomas lang and gary novack.
i saw gary husband play with alan holdsworth [crazy fusion gig] and in a fiery 'swing' setting. at first, i was almost troubled by his playing, coz i didn't quite "get it." not because he was musically whacking off, but because it seemed so DEEP. i just think he has an insanely passionate, profound and musical approach to the drums that floored me in a tony williams kind of way.
thomas lang knocked my socks off at a modern drummer festival. i'd never heard of him or seen him before, but his facility with multi-limbed use was really mind-bending. and it wasn't gratuitous stuff. the guy was genuinely musical and in touch with playing for the song. extremely well-rounded, powerful player. also a major-league babe.
gary novack blew me away when i heard some of the chick stuff he did. i think it's the combination of his drum sound and choice of fills [timing/sticking pattern/note groupings] that made me stop and take note. it's also so cool to see someone in touch with two very diverse musical forms [seeing as he does the alanis gig as well].
i should also mention tain watts, who i cherish immensely, even though i still can't understand what he does. he's just a friggin' animal. it's great to see and hear him play. john riley did a whole clinic on tain's use of metric modulation at a pasic clinic, and it brought a whole new dimension to my understanding of rhythm.
to me, just about any drummer i see brings something new and exciting to the picture, because i suck so bad. but the four aforementioned people made ME stand up and take note, and think 'if i ever got really good, i'd like to take something of what this guy did and do something with it.'
but that's just me. if these guys [with the exception of novack] never get a real hi-profile gig, the rest of the world may never take note of their achievements, which is a shame.
Well, wasn't Matt Cameron (Soundgarden, Wellwater Conspiracy, PJ) an influential drummer? He was part of a culture like grunge was. He is very interesting.
He has obvious influences of Bonham, the way he plays that fast bass drum pace. Pure Bonham.
BTW... Why doesnt Bonham get the recognition he deserves?? To me, one of the best ever.
About that whole drumset spinning thing that was mentioned a while back...Buddy Rich did it first with Jerry Lewis (I have a video clip on my computer from Kazaa of them playing together, it's pretty cool).
Quote from: Hootsama on November 19, 2003, 10:20 AM
"I can tell you that 99.99% of people in the UK have never heard of Galactic for example."
Not sure why this is relevant... Hell, many of the names mentioned thus far are new to me... does that make these folks less influencial in the drumming community, as a whole?
It's relevant because Mr A's original post was about 'the next big thing'. The drummers he mentioned (Gadd, Cobham, Stewart Copeland, Manu Katche) trancended the cliquey drummer community and changed the face of rhythm tracks in rock/pop music in general.
As soon as their drumming hit the charts I was being told by record producers "this song needs a '50 ways to leave your lover' feel" or a 'Police' feel.
I'm not sure if someone like Stanton Moore will ever make that big an impact.
If you think of Copeland, I can't think of anyone who was playing Reggae grooves by thrashing the bell on his ride and doubling up the feel with a cranked snare. He sounded completely unique at the time......but on a string of number one singles.
It's a lot easier to be innovative in a selective market. Try doing it on 'commercial' material. That's what makes the drummers Mr A mentioned hall of famers IMHO.
Hey guys, check out Dave Watts. He plays in a nationally touring band called The Motet. He went to Berklee. He has a really funky groove, and the band also has a percussionist, Scott Messersmith. Scott is from New Orleans and has been playing since he was a child with master drummers from all over the world. They have a website www.themotet.net. Try it , you'll like it!
It seems to me that maybe it isn't just the drummer that defines something new, but the right drummer in the right band.
For example, going back to my younger playing days, Joe Morello redefined playing combo jazz with his odd time grooves. But would Joe have done this without Brubeck? Or Brubeck without Morello for that matter? Would Ringo without the Beatles, or the Beatles without Ringo have exerted as much influence as the combination did?
Maybe the reason we don't see any really innovative drummers is that there aren't many really innovative bands. Don't get me wrong, there is a lot of god stuff going on, but it just seems that today's rock/metal/blues/country/funk bands just keep doing rock/metal/blues/country/funk better.
The two bright spots in my opinion are Latin jazz and big band swing (not jazz). The newer Latin composers and groups are doing some really interesting instrument and style combinations. And the newer big bands (Setzer, Voodoo Daddy) are doing intersting combinations of big bad/swing/50s "rock".
As for today's internet/corporate environment, I think things are better than ever. Back in the early 60s, you paid boocoo bucks for a simple decent quality demo tape. And you could never get anything distributed without the help of a major label. Today, Bubba's Hoedown Band has high quality (recording wise) CDs available for sale at every bluegrass festival they perform, at the local flea market and at their website.
It never has been easier and cheaper to get yourself recorded and heard. That doesn't mean you will get rich, get played on the radio or go down in history, but you can much more exposure for less effort and dollars than anytime in the past.
Just my .02 worth which, with inflation and my age, is a lot less these days.
If any mortal being could predict the next big thing, he would start doing it and not tell us untill it happened.
No single drummer will achieve the next big thing by himself, all significant events in music have occurred only when the right drummer is paired with the right leader or group.
The next big thing will occur when;
Another Krupa meets another Goodman
Another Elvin Jones meets another John Coltrane
Another Morello meets another Brubeck
Another Tony Williams meets another Miles Davis
etc, etc, etc.
Of course we all individually hope that it will be us that does it !
Roger
For me,
as long as we refer to players as "drummer x" meets "drummer y" there will never be someone who we call truly innovative. By describing someone with a comparison we immediately pigeon hole them, or compliment them whichever way you look at it. We all stand on another drummers shoulders. Whether it's your high school band teacher or Steve Gadd. The only thing is, Steve Gadd had someone like that too, so to say that he or any of these people completely changed the game is true, but it didn't just materialize out of thin air. They weren't just "born with it". Not to say that some players have natural talent, but there are always environmental factors that lead to artists reaching certain levels of expression. So what's next? Personally I'm into electronic music and beats made by people other than drummers, it's refreshing for me and inspiring to try to reverse engineer. i like how certain producers/programmers approach drums and rhythm to me most times it's a bit less cliche. Just my $.02
There aren't any drummers who I can think of are "cutting-edge" right now. And I tend to agree with felix as to the reason why - it's because there really isn't any "cutting-edge" music being brought to the forefront. When the music changes, that's when drumming changes, too, but until that happens again (and it will, of course), I think that right now we are all eating the same old sandwich.
JMHO, folks.
BTW, I very rarely follow a long thread to its entirety, due to impatience, I guess, but in this case, I have read each and every post. Great thread, Mr. A !!
Regards,
drumz1
Quote from: drumz1 on March 14, 2004, 11:06 PM
There aren't any drummers who I can think of are "cutting-edge" right now. And I tend to agree with felix as to the reason why - it's because there really isn't any "cutting-edge" music being brought to the forefront. When the music changes, that's when drumming changes, too, but until that happens again (and it will, of course), I think that right now we are all eating the same old sandwich.
Mr. A started another thread mentioning Adam Deitch with Scofield. While I think he's really just rehashing "Jabo" Starks from early James Brown stuff, there's a cutting-edge feel to his approach to those old beats. He's recreating a lot of the stuff I hear from drum-n-bass and techno styles, fusing them into Sco's silky bop guitar stylings. I think it's cutting edge in the sense I haven't heard anyone make that stuff so seamless and feel good like he has (or feel as free!). It's almost like a new phase of bop or post-bop. Post-post-bop?
Quote from: Gaddabout on March 14, 2004, 11:18 PM
Mr. A started another thread mentioning Adam Deitch with Scofield. While I think he's really just rehashing "Jabo" Starks from early James Brown stuff, there's a cutting-edge feel to his approach to those old beats. He's recreating a lot of the stuff I hear from drum-n-bass and techno styles, fusing them into Sco's silky bop guitar stylings. I think it's cutting edge in the sense I haven't heard anyone make that stuff so seamless and feel good like he has (or feel as free!). It's almost like a new phase of bop or post-bop. Post-post-bop?
I agree for the most part. It really does seem like he's bringing about a new musical phase - that's why I think he's going to be an important drummer. It's true that most of his beats are very obviously derived from classic 70's funk drummers, but the way he fuses it with hiphop, and finds acoustic ways to simulate modern samples and loops, is extremely hip. I haven't heard anybody fuse these elements so perfectly, not Jojo Mayer, not Questlove (both of whom are excellent drummers). I think Adam has taken something old, combined it with something newer, and is creating something new.
That's what Gadd did, combining Elvin, Tony, and rudimental chops. That's what Bozzio did, combining Tony Williams, Eric Gravatt, and the compositional concepts of composers like Stravinsky et al. Copeland took reggae, rock, and middle eastern music, and fused it with punk energy.
We each are a combination of our influences. The more interesting and diverse those influence are, the more unique our own playing may become.
Adam's influences are obvious, but to my ears, his playing is unique. Whether or not he's "the next big thing," he IS one terrific drummer.
It might help to be thinking of music, sound and vibration, and not in terms of widespread effect. I can't do a thing to influence anyone. The only thing I can do is work on myself. I look at Milford Graves, American Indian drummers, Stockhausen, Han Bennick, Bob Moses, ... and tunes like
Brick House, Jimmy Smith grooves.... It's about vibration, and until I get all the extraneous noises out of my head ( bar gigs, pop music, fighting the karaoke.DJ vs live music fight, politics, personaliites,) out of the way , at least temporarily, I can't do a thing about improving my lot. Ask questions, listen for the answers. One of the posts said WE are the next thing. That is the truest thing I've heard, because in the final analysis, only we can allow ourselves to be affected or not. we need to listen.
"I'm gonna come back as a note" Rashaan Roland Kirk