Topic: Where's the next big thing?

[Mister Acrolite]

Yesterday I started to respond to  http://www.drummercafe.com/forum/index.php?board=7;action=display;threadid=6034]the "Music" thread , but I stopped when I noticed that every CD I was recommending was at least 10 years old, and in some cases, more than 20 years old.

That really puzzled me. I mean, I listen to a LOT of music, and not just old stuff. And I think there are some terrific young drummers out there in some of the newer bands - in my opinion, the skill of the "average" pro player keeps going up.

BUT - where's the next big thing? The guy (or gal) who comes out of nowhere and totally changes everything? Not just in terms of sheer chops, but in the way they change how music sounds. The ones who, the first time you hear them, make you say, "Who IS that guy?!?"

Steve Gadd did it. NOBODY played like him. But between his own prolific recording career and his many imitators, his approach to drumming - and, more importantly, to accompanying a song - has made a significant impact on the music we hear. Without Gadd, you'd have no Vinnie; no Weckl.

Billy Cobham did it. He brought a muscularity to fusion music that many have imitated, but few have matched. He was a pioneer in exploring what could be accomplished on a big kit, combining drum corps chops with the mind of a mathemetician, and playing with the brutality of a linebacker.

Tommy Aldridge did it. From a vacuum, he created what has become THE basic vocabulary for double-bass rock drumming, and even if he keeps doing the same thing he's always done, he does it with more authority than just about anybody I've ever seen.

Terry Bozzio did it. Combining Tony Williams' chops with the compositional concepts of Stravinsky and Varese, this guy changed both our notion of what a drum set can be, and what can be physically - and musically - accomplished on one. His drum parts, even on silly pop songs, are like classical compositions in their logic and complexity.

Stewart Copeland did it. Bringing a reggae influence to what was basically a punk band, his unique grooves, tuning, and use of splash cymbals represented a COMPLETELY new voice on the instrument. Again, he was a huge influence on many of today's great drummers, Vinnie Colaiuta in particular, and his splash cymbal work doubtless inspired Manu Katche.

Manu Katche did it, to some extent. He brought a very unique approach to pop drumming, with very obvious influences from Gadd and Copeland, but with his own uniquely European sensibility.

Weckl and Vinnie did it. They raised the bar significantly on what a good improvising drummer was expected to do, combining awesome technique with click-track precision. Vinnie in particular has a sick-puppy rhythmic concept that I think almost nobody can match. And Weckl's precision is just scary. But to me, neither of them have as unique a voice as the others I've listed. (This could be argued, I realize - this is just my opinion.)  They are in many instances better PLAYERS than the others, but not as unique in the way they make music sound.

That's what I'm getting at: until guys like Gadd, Copeland, etc. came along, music simply didn't sound like that. They changed not only drumming, but music itself. That's pretty heavy.

And that's what I don't see anybody doing right now. True, there are some drummers who keep raising the bar on what is physically possible on the instrument. Guys like Virgil Donati, Marco Minneman, Mike Mangini, etc. But while these guys can play amazing things on drums, I do not hear from them a "stamp" that they put on the actual music they play. I've seen Virgil live, and until he took his solo, he sounded like any other good rock drummer. It seems to me that this crop of uber-drummers is more focused on technique than on playing songs.

And we do have other unique-sounding drummers, such as the "organic" sounding Stanton Moore and Billy Martin. But both of them are really just elaborating on sounds and feels created in the 60's and 70's. They sound great, but it's an extension of stuff we've already heard before.

Similarly, the drum-n-bass movement is yielding some killer players, like Johnny Rabb and JoJo Mayer. But despite their great chops and killer grooves, again to me they seem to be basing their sounds and rhythmic vocabularies on variations of the boogalo beat, which is straight out of the 60's. What they DO with that beat is fascinating, and the sudden juxtapositions of double- and triple-time sound cool as hell. But the basic rhythms they're using are almost as old as I am. And that's OLD.

Speedmetal (and all the other subgenres) drummers keep expanding the threshold of speed that human feet can attain. But I find little other innovation in the drumming.

Punk drumming has gotten better, with guys like Tre Cool and Travis Barker setting good examples. Barker in particular is a terrific player, but the things he plays can be easily traced to his influences. He is conspicuous primarily because he plays so well in comparison with his competitors in the style.

So I guess what I'm wondering is: where is he (or she)? The next drummer who'll come along and blow our minds with their unique sound and vision? Any thoughts?

This off-the-top-of-my-head list of drummers who have changed the face of music is far from comprehensive, and only goes back about 30 years. In most cases, these guys are building on what their predecessors did in jazz music in the 50 years prior. But I'll spare you a lesson on drumset history - many have written far better ones than I can.

But I'm still puzzled why I haven't heard a new drummer who's totally knocked me on my ear in over a decade. Are they out there, and I'm just oblivious?



Edit: Without lengthening this already biblical post, I do want to add Bill Stewart and Ari Hoenig to my list of innovators.

[Kelly Minnis]

You're right.  There aren't a lot of guys currently out there truly innovating a new style of playing.  There are a handful of folks whose drumming has been influential, if not innovative, that missed your list:

1. Dave Grohl - Nirvana, Foo Fighters, Queens of the Stone Age, Killing Joke, etc.  Hitting them really hard, with lots of flams, 16th note rolls and plain-old hard rock bashing, all tied in with an amazing sense of the song and where to make the tension explode.  I'd say he's the most influential rock drummer of the '90s.

2. Stephen Perkins - Jane's Addiction, Porno For Pyros.  Incorporating a world music sensibility and true four limb independence, incorporating hand percussion beats with his left hand, cowbell with left foot while maintaining a kit groove.  Great use of toms as well.

3. Scott Plouf - The Spinanes, Built To Spill.  Scott throws all kinds of tom hits in the middle of the groove and places emphasis on the 1 & 3 for backbeats.  He's unknown outside of the alt-rock circles but I always recognize Scott's playing regardless of who he's playing with.

4. Rob Ellis - PJ Harvey.  Rob's work on the first two PJ Harvey records are immensely influential.  Lots of use of toms, cymbal bells in octopus-arm grooves in strange time signatures.  An instantly recognizeable style.

5. Jimmy Chamberlain - Smashing Pumpkins, Zwan.  Take it his fill flourishes are vintage Keith Moon, Chamberlain takes the over-the-top fill-happy style of Moon and adds a Neil Peart styled control to the chaos.  

These the folks I instantly thought of who've put out records in the past ten years who have instantly recognizeable styles that they have forged from great influences and a fine ear.  Two lesser known, but three of those names will certainly be remembered as the great rock drummers of the '90s.

If you're looking at pop music, the drummer of the '90s would have to be the Akai sampler.

[drwalker]

Mr. A.  Excellent post!!   I agree with all of you statements and reading your views of Weckl are hard to swallow but true, you nailed it there.  Quickly on Weckl one thing Dave brings to the table as you said is perfection a kind of metronome playing which is extremely clean.  Technical yes and a bit staccato (staccato – Expressed in a brief, pointed manner. ) maybe but you cant deny his precise playing ability (you didnt, Im just reiterating your fact).

I would say the newest drummer today that has something to offer and eventually will show all his talents is Danny Carey I think Danny is just getting started.  And listening to the music that he has recorded to date has blown my mind and his playing style for the type of music he plays is very unique.  I dig progressive music and the ever-changing time signatures and since the days of ELP, Genesis, Rush (2112 era) and others Danny brings drumming to the level that I remember and beyond.  Now that he is doing clinics I just hope that he doesnt fall into the Weckl trap and play one type of music.  I hope that he follows Vinnie and Gadd and tries it all!  I think with his formal music background (which I understand he is very strong in traditional jazz) he can offer drummers a lot in the future..

dw

[psycht]

Ah, the signs of old age.  

but seriously, Mr. A has a point. There are some great drummers out there today, but have they REALLY shown signs of being an innovative drummer?  Sure, they have chops, groove, etc... but they don't stick out among the names that Keith has compared them to.

I can't really think of many drummers out there that (because of their style) really stick out. Carter and Chambers are the first to come to mind. Because of recent discussion, Aaron Comes (Spin Doctors) comes to mind, and also Chad Sexton (311)  are great drummers that fit into that category (IMO).

[Mister Acrolite]

These the folks I instantly thought of who've put out records in the past ten years who have instantly recognizeable styles that they have forged from great influences and a fine ear.  Two lesser known, but three of those names will certainly be remembered as the great rock drummers of the '90s.

I'm not familiar with Ellis or Plouf, but those others you named are excellent drummers, with identifiable styles, I agree. I guess maybe I might include Grohl - he's indeed a great rock drummer, but I don't think he changed the face of drumming to the extent that say, Stewart Copeland did. And Chamberlain always just struck me as a the new Carl Palmer, bringing amazing snare technique into rock drumming. Nice to listen to, but not based on anything terribly new.

Don't get me wrong - there are plenty of truly GREAT drummers out there - hell, there's more every day, it seems. But I'm not being as completely caught off guard by any of the new guys like I was when I first heard Gadd, Copeland, Bozzio, etc. Those are the guys who I literally remember where I was the first time I heard them. That's the kind of impression I'm talking about.

If you're looking at pop music, the drummer of the '90s would have to be the Akai sampler.

LOL - too true!!!

[James Walker]

Great thread, and I wish I had an answer.

Thinking out loud here...does the perception (and I'm pretty much in agreement with what Mr_A has written above) that there are no players out there redefining drumming (or music) have anything to do with the fact that instructional materials - both formal and informal - are so widely available now?  Instructional videos, the Internet, recordings (both purchased and shared, but please let's not get into THAT discussion)...the amount of material out there is far greater than anything we had when I was starting out (FWIW, I'm 37, and I started playing in the late 70s).  Also, the availability of music and information from different cultures is far easier than it was back then, both due to the new media, as well as the growth in popularity of "World Music" over the last decade or so (I hate that expression, but everyone knows what I'm talking about when I use it).

Unique players grow from unique developmental circumstances and unique influences - and there's far more "common ground" in what players are learning nowadays, IMHO.  The next player to really shake things up will probably have to create something new from a group of influences shared by (or at least, available to) the vast majority of other drummers on the planet, which is kinda tough to do.

Unique players also often grow (and are heard) through unique opportunities, performing with musicians who have unique visions.  Think about Mr_A's list, and there are lots of examples of this:  Gadd with Chick Corea, Paul Simon, Steely Dan (and about a zillion other artists)...Stewart Copeland with The Police (I'm still amazed at the talent in that band)...Vinnie and Bozzio cutting their teeth with Zappa...Billy Cobham with Mahavishnu and his own innovative groups...Manu Katche with Peter Gabriel, Robbie Robertson, Joni Mitchell...it's tougher for really unique music (at least, what I consider to be "unique" - and that's another subject open to debate) to flood the marketplace the way the Police did, for example.  Radio, video music outlets...things have gotten really ghetto-ized, musically speaking, and it's a challenge for a player and/or band to transcend that and really make a mark with a huge variety of listeners.

If nothing else, this sort of discussion really makes me appreciate the guys who did put such an indelible mark on the music - not only is it tough to do, but with each new trailblazer, that's one less path available for someone else to blaze.

(The above has been submitted prior to my first cup of coffee of the day...so IMHO, YMMV, FWIW, and all other hideous Internet disclaimers apply.)

[Tony]

Maybe Danny Carey.  But even his stuff is heavily influenced by Bill Bruford.

I have to agree, there isn't really a drummer in the last 10 years who can be considered and innovator.  Most pop/rock drummers are just rehashing what's been done over and over again.  Has modern music reached it's pinnacle?  Is there anything new to do?  Only time will tell.

[felix]

Where's the next big thing?

The White Stripes- they are #1 or #2 right now with that tune "the hardest button to button".  

Don't you guys know anything?  Music has finally collapsed on itself!  Imploded.  Dream Theatre can't sound any worse to me.  Time to go back to the basics.  Corporations and the Internet fighting an epic battle!  The power of digital recording is in the palm of your hand.  

  The next huge thing will be a microcosm of a tune that's part of an indy label x 1000.  You will never hear it but a 1000 songs like it and you will discount it's validity cause it's not "huge" like the old days when we bought records/tapes and went to concerts and actually bought T shirts.  Now we just turn on the radio and say how GOOD the corporate slop they are doling us is.  We play in our crappy cover bands cause that's the only gig that PAYS and we call it GOOD.  Our original band is hanging by a thread cause the market is eroded by people that will play their crap for FREE in the hopes of MAKING IT HUGE someday.

   Who cares what the next big thing is.   I'm just worried about today.  

[SheldonWhite]

Hey, I got to meet one of them this weekend. A guy named Brian Blade.

He puts an indelible stamp on everything he plays, and brings an amazing joy, energy and fire to his music. He's a very inspiring and influential player.

His approach is very textural and intuitive and he isn't obsessed with technique for technique's sake, so he might not appeal to the 'fast-paradiddles-on-the-bassdrums-while-soloing-in-17/4-time' crowd, but he's one of the few musicians I would pay to see every thime.

[Drumlooney]

Not just because I'm a Latin Jazz buff and happen to be hispanic but I thing that Horacio Hernandez has a totally unique voice in his drumming, his ability to play what sounds like 3, 4 or even five percussion voices all while playing clave with left foot without stopping is truly amazing, Mr. A if you haven't seen or heard much of this guy may I suggest you check out a new album he just did with Michel Camilo titled "Live at the Blue Note" some really great live stuff, and check out any of his videos.  Of course all this is my opinion so take it with a grain of salt.

[Scott]

Some really good points brought up in this thread.  James' post really says it all.  But first, to give my opinion to Mr. A's original post, there really haven't been any drummers to do what Gadd, Cobham, Copeland, etc. did because the mediums to which music is available/heard has changed so much since when it was presented when those guys came out.  So, that's to say that there ARE/have been drummers that have been innovative and influential but not on that level because that level of impact can never be reached again given the current medium to which music/drumming is being presented.  THAT is the essence of James' post.

James gets into some of the good reasons why there will never be players like the aforementioned AGAIN.  Felix got into a bit about how the medium was 'back then' but if you compare the mediums of today (James' post) with the mediums back when these players came out, you may start to see how it truly will never be possible again to have that kind of playing, and even music, connected with that amount of impact.  For example, back then, with fewer ways to obtain music (i.e. internet), there is less music available to the musician.  Therefore, the musician is that much more in a position to HAVE to come up with something creative rather than having a musical example available to draw from.  Thus, they end up with something more unique and less related to something else.  In addition, with more and more and more music (styles/types of music) available to the world, musicians are less likely to spend as much time developing something specific.  For example, the modern drummer has to be a jack of all trades and a master of none to survive.  There are fewer and fewer players that are truly able to afford themselves the opportunity to really dedicate themselves to doing something specific and sticking with it/developing it because they are not in a time period that allows that.  

Music also changes much faster due to the aforementioned current music mediums out there now.  You also have to look at the industry/business side of music.  There is very little 'artist development' anymore and bands/musicians aren't given the opportunity to come up with an approach and develop it over the course of a few albums.  The turnover is so massive today, bands are lucky to get a one album deal and maybe only having one single released from that album.  Then, you never hear from them again.  How can a player/band make an impact with no opportunity to stick around to have the world hear them?

I don't really know where we're at with the next 'big thing' but it sure won't be in the same effect as the 'old' guys..  

Great thread!

[felix]

Is avril lavigne too old?  Good one.

I like the white stripes very much btw.

Yeah and like Drumlooney says and forgive me if I speak for him but we are talking about American pop music.  I think horatio is amazing btw also. Subsequently, I couldn't tell you what the next big thing is going to be in Latin America, China, Russia, India, etc.  Or will westernization corrupt their music also?  Hell, I wouldn't doubt it.  But we won't go there right?

Just keep playing guys... if you dig it and make it sound great- it is.  Is phil rudd any less of a player than horatio hernandez or vinnie calaiuta???  I don't think so.  But not sure if that is relevant here-  just letting you know what page I'm on.  

[Mister Acrolite]

I think some people are misinterpreting my post, perhaps because of the title.

I'm not talking about what the PUBLIC perceives as the "next big thing," like Britney Spears or Blink 182 or whatever.

And I'm not just talking about drummers who have amazing chops, and identifiable styles. They keep emerging, and I think more of them are emerging than ever.

I'm talking about the tiny handful of drummers who literally come along and change how we think about drumming and its role in music. Guys without whom we would lack some key parts of our own musical vocabulary.

[Mark Schlipper]

The more history we accumulate the harder it is to seperate us from it.  

You said Cobham was unique in his time.    Well, now we have to add him to the historical list of influences.  So instead of having X number of potential comparisons we have X+1 ... see what Im saying?   Its harder to be unique in regard to the history of the instrument because its getting full.  

I think we have to look for players unique in thier field.   People who take that Cobham influence and use in some other area than fusion etc.  Danny Carey?

The most unique  voices I hear in drumming today are coming from free improv/jazz.   I think that area of music allows the most room for it really.   Youre mention of Ari Hoenig is a great example.   I can add Earl Harvin, Jim Black and Joey Baron to that list as well.   All unique voices.    

So who is unique in rock/pop?  Damon Che (Don Cabellero), Jim White (Dirty Three), Pat Samson (U.S. Maple), John Herdon and John McEntire (Tortoise), Lou Ciccotelli (Laika, God, Eardrum) and Doug Scharin (June of 44, Him, Rex).    

So can you hear the influences on these unique players?  If you want to pick, yeah, you can.  You can do the same for any player, even those considered unique.  We all come from somewhere.

[Mister Acrolite]

So can you hear the influences on these unique players?  If you want to pick, yeah, you can.  You can do the same for any player, even those considered unique.  We all come from somewhere.

No question about that. Gadd's Elvin, Tony, and drumcorps influences are readily apparent.

I guess I'm not getting my point across.  

We've got LOTS of great drummers. LOTS of players with unique styles. Hell, I think I have a unique style.

What I'm talking about is a unique player who makes such an impact on the rest of the drumming world, and on the world of music. Joey Baron, terrific and unique drummer that he is, has not done that. (I sure as hell have not done that!) But Gadd has. Copeland has. Etcetera.

Does that make more sense?

[BBJones]

Yes here I come talking about metal again...

This has been happening a lot in metal drumming and continues to happen.  You say the criteria is something that fundamentally changes the way people drum?  Happens all the time in metal becuase drummers keep pushing themselves beyond what people thought was possible.  Then they share their techniques and all the new metal drummers play that way.  It's kinda normal and isn't really thought of as super-ground breaking becuase metal drummers are all working towards the same goals of re-inventing how to play metal.

And yes it's probably nothing *really* new but in metal, it most definitely is.  So perhaps it's more about innovation in one particular style as 563 talks about.  

Or maybe no one else really cares what happens in metal...

[Mister Acrolite]

Or maybe no one else really cares what happens in metal...

Way to try to hijack a thread, metalboy!    

Here's a set of questions for you:

• Do you know any Steve Gadd licks?
• Do you know any Stewart Copeland grooves?
• Any Elvin Jones ride cymbal rhythms?
• Any Tony Williams flam licks?
• Any Bozzio ostinatos?
• Any Deen Castronovo 2-handed ride rhythms?
• Any Vinnie Colaiuta time superimposition techniques?
• Any Manu Katche linear grooves?

I ask you this NOT to attack you, but to illustrate a point. If all you focus on is metal drumming, and the playing of other metal drummers, you're going to have a hard time not sounding just like the rest of them.

BUT - if you were to draw from a wider range of influences, and then apply those concepts to metal drumming, you could come up with something truly unique.

Maybe your answer to some of my questions will be yes. If that's the case, I'll be both surprised and delighted. Because so far the tunnel vision you've shown in your posts makes me think you're really limiting your exposure to all the great drumming out there.

[BBJones]

Didn't think replying on the topic at hand was hijacking

Do you know any Steve Gadd licks?  No
Do you know any Stewart Copeland grooves?  Yes
Any Elvin Jones ride cymbal rhythms? No
Any Tony Williams flam licks? No
Any Bozzio ostinatos? Yes
Any Deen Castronovo 2-handed ride rhythms? No
Any Vinnie Colaiuta time superimposition techniques?  No
Any Manu Katche linear grooves? No

Posting yes or no to any of those question has no impact on what I actually play.  Just becuase I can't recognize a groove or lick from one particular drummer does not indicate whether or not I play like them.  I say no in most cases becuase I would not be able to put the lick to the name, however I have heard most of these players at some point.

In case you didn't know, I only started playing metal last year.  Before that I've played in many different bands and some different styles including blues, rock and pop (noteable shows were opening up for D.O.A. and also opened up 3 sold out nights for 54-40).

I take influence from as wide a variety of drummers as possible and generally do not try to imitate any particular drummer.  As well as getting into metal recently, I have only recently started paying attention to what the drummer's name is.  I am influenced by the people you mention but do not study them directly.

I also currently work with an instructor on jazz and latin rythym and continually try my hardest to expand my drumming abilities from all styles.  I most definitely do not stay tunnelled into metal drumming, but  currently that is they style I play in and try to come up with my own style of incorporating everything I know while still making my drumming fit the music.  And yes, the band I'm in are very conciously trying to create a new breed of metal that isn't just (boom-chick-boom-chick-boom-chick) at 200 miles an hour.  There is of course much more to it just as there is no end to reinventing everything with drumming.

Given all of that, I still think there are many innovations happening in metal drumming that have a major impact on the drummers that follow them.

EDIT:  Something else I have to say... Since coming to this forum I have learned a lot about how other professional drummers go about improving themselves and learning from the other great drummers.  For that, big thanks to Bartman and everyone else on this forum.  I find this site an incredible resource for me and my continued development as a drummer.

Now THAT was a hijack!

[Mark Schlipper]

What I'm talking about is a unique player who makes such an impact on the rest of the drumming world, and on the world of music. Joey Baron, terrific and unique drummer that he is, has not done that. (I sure as hell have not done that!) But Gadd has. Copeland has. Etcetera.

Does that make more sense?

Yeah, I get it ... Maybe its just that these great and unique players impact hasnt been felt yet.  I've been influenced by Joey Baron and John McEntire for sure.  I'm still a nobody.   If I become "somebody" then my influences will be more public and those people that influenced me will get credit as being influential.  

When Gadd came out doing his thing, he was recognized in his community as great, but It wasnt until folks that he influenced came out that he was recognized as being influential was he?

So we're just talking speculation here.  I think its just a matter of time.   Which brings us to your original question ... Who? ... It could be any of the folks we've all mentioned couldnt it.  

[Tony]

Meanwhile, back at the Drummer Cafe.......

Keith, I understood your post and I agree with you for the most part.  I think the tendency here is for people to put a spin on a topic or only read half of it before shooting off a response (which I've been guilty of).

Many of today's drummers are very good.  Carte Beauford was mentioned earlier in the thread.  He is an amazing drummer, easily recognized by legions of non-drummers.  But he hasn't done anything new, fresh or groundbreaking.  He took Billy Cobham and fused it with Stewart Copeland.  Is he influential and a great drummer?  Sure, but he's not innovative.  It's similar to the point I try to make with other musicians.  Anyone can play what someone else has written.  It takes a true talent to get people to play what you've written.  Guitar players who can play like Joe Satriani don't impress me.  Joe Satriani impresses me for hearing the music in his head and bringing it to life on his axe.