Topic: Recording

[Drummz]

I wouldn't buy a digital 4 or 8 track.  It just doesn't make sense.  You will have 1300 bucks in the thing have a crappy room and bad mics and crappy pre's

I wouldn't say Zeppelin's recordings were crap. I read where the first two Zeppelin albums were recorded with a simple 4 track recorder and also had no close miking on the drums at all! Everything was done with ambient mics for the most part. In the Guitar Player article I read Jimmy Page said he was doing stuff that the engineers said was impossible - techniques in recording and miking that no one believed in and had never tried. I believe Bonham only had two overheads and a kick mic on those records. Heck on the fourth album they recorded "When The Levee Breaks" with NO mics directly on the drums. The drums were placed in a long hallway in a house with a single mic placed at the end of the hallway halfway down a flight of steps. That is how Jimmy Page and John Paul Jones said they got that big drum sound in that song.

There are national acts that have recorded their entire CD throughout a house in various rooms. I can think of STP, U2, Red Hot Chili Peppers just off the top of my head that have recorded like that. Heck some of the STP songs were done in a cedar closet, out on the front lawn, and even in a bathroom when I saw a documentary for their 3rd CD. I am sure there are many other groups throughout the years that have done similar things as well.

So to say you can't record something decent with a home recording studio is just not true from hearing things like that. I have heard stuff that does sound pretty darn good recorded in a living room. Joe Bonamassa has a tune on his latest CD that was done with a small multitracker in his living room as a matter of fact. Granted I have heard some bad recordings also. Many people record in too small of a room or perhaps one that is too dead. I think it just takes time and playing around with rooms and mics, not just simply setting up and plugging in. But I do believe it can be done. And no I would not advise to go out and buy $29 microphones to do the job either. But there are some fairly reasonably priced mics that can do the job well. Besides we are not talking about cutting a full record to get signed, but a demo. It all depends on how tenacious you are. I am no expert on sound or recording, that is a fact. But you can't argue with the fact that it has been done.

I am not trying to discourage anyone to not utilize or seek a professional studio and check out what they have to offer by any means. I am just saying there is an alternative that many times can be more convenient for a smaller band and also more economical in the long run. Plus you will have the equipment and know-how to do it again when you need it.

OK, that's my four cents    I will shut up now  

[Mark Schlipper]

You both make valid points, but unfortunately Drummz, Felix's, while very absolute, is more on target with what generally ends up happening.  

I have a home studio, and cheap gear.  But I know how to use it to make good recordings.   The average musician doesnt have that knowledge.   (Not tooting my horn here, I went to school for audio engineering)

So while yeah, many recordings were done on 4 tracks and done in houses thats only part of the equation.   Led Zepplin and the Chili Peppers werent trying to record entire albums in the living room with a Shure SM57 and the mic pre and effects built into a Tascam Portastudio.  And they werent going into that situation with no prior recording knowledge.  

What it comes down to is the engineer really.   A great engineer can do great things with very little in the way of gear.   A bad engineer can use the finest gear on the market and turn out a bad recording.   Bonus that you get a set of objective ears as well.

So you have to do the math and find the balance.  

[Drummz]

I agree 563. There are a lot of variables.

[WiPunkAllStar]

I'd recomend, as previously stated, practicing without vocals.  Maybe try recording your practices too so you get used to recording.  Im recording for my first time in a week, so excited.

[Drummz]

Cool Punk!

Let us know how it goes and what you learn doing it. I am always curious to hear peoples' experiences and what they like and don't like about it.

[vertijoe]

To quote a cliche':

"Give a man a fish, feed him for a day.  Teach a man to fish, feed him for life."  or something like that.

If you have the motivation, get your hands on some home recording equipment, and just start doing it.  I bought myself a Fostex vf-160, a decent tube preamp, and some decent mics.  I'm working on the bands CD project, and while it's going slow, I'm having a great time.  The fact is, I'm not looking to get rich or famous.  We just want something to sell at gigs to those who are interested.

If you want to invest in yourself, do that.  Sure $1300 will buy you a decent little demo.  It'll also buy you all the demos you want to do from now on.  And, you might learn something.  There are lots of resources out on the web to help you learn how to work with the equipment.

Good luck with your descision.

[Funkadrummer]

Well considering that I want to go to college to be a studio engineer I think I may just by a digital 8 track, some mics and whatever is needed.

What mics do you reccamend for my kit though, its gonna be something like:

10x10
14x14
16x14
20x18
14x6 (Snare)
12x6 (Snare)

1 Hihat
2 splashes
3 crashes
1 china

Also whatelse do you think you needed in general?

Thanks, Josh

[Chris Whitten]

Just to add to 563,
All those albums by Zepplin, U2, Chili Peppers etc....were recorded on very expensive, high end equipment, by experienced and expert engineers and producers.
In some cases they may have used 4 track machines and a couple of mics, but I can tell you, to recreate the equipment they used would cost WAY over $1300. Maybe one of those Neumann mics would cost $1300.
For a CD to sell at gigs etc... I think the studio Felix mentioned, or the one with Pro Tools HD and the API mic/pre's are both good deals.
If you want to do demos and start to record your band on a regular basis, then yes, start putting together a lower budget home recording set up.

[Mark Schlipper]

What mics do you reccamend for my kit though, its gonna be something like:

A kick mic like the Audix D or AKG D112 etc, and one large diaphragm condensor overhead, or two small diaphragms.   Dont bother individually mic'ing everything, itll just give you more grief, and its good to learn how to listen with just one or two ears.   The single overhead is a great simple way to do it.   With two, you'll have to learn about phase relations, which is important to learn, but can be frustrating in the process.

Also whatelse do you think you needed in general?

If youre getting a "studio in a box" with mic pres and all, then all you need is cables and stands.  

As for mics for other instruments, you can use that kick mic or the large diaphragm on a bass cab.   The large diaphragm can be used on vocals too.  And a simple dynamic like the SM57 for guitar amps.   Should get you by.    

My idea of a bare bones mic rig (brand and model is just suggestion) :

Audix D6 (large diaphragm dynamic) - kick and bass mic
Shure SM57 / (sm dia dyn) - guitar amps, misc
Oktava MK319 (lg dia con) - overheads, vocals, acoustics, misc
AKG C1000 pair (sm dia con) - overheads, acoustics, room, misc

In other words, a bass specific mic, a generic dynamic, a pair of small condensors, and a large condensor.  Those 5 mics can get you through just about anything with variety and room to spare.  For example, if you were recording the average rock band, and needed to record them all at once (not counting vocals) :

lg con - overhead
lg dyn - kick
sm dyn - bass cab
sm con - guitar 1
sm con - guitar 2

Some people prefer a direct bass signal (I generally dont unless its direct from the amp and its designed for that) which would free up a mic.  

[Chris Whitten]

Sorry.....I've got to say I hate the C1000.
There are a plethora of relitively cheap and GREAT sounding condensors out there.
Here's one:
http://www.avensonaudio.com/about.html
Other than that, 563 is spot on.
Might I suggest a computer recording system over a stand alone unit?
Most people end up owning a computer and there are reasonably priced hard disc recording systems (including music sequencers).
If you want to study studio engineering it's as well to learn about computers and sequencer software anyway.
Also, the editing capability is going to blow your mind.

[dizz]

I have been very happy with my C1000s'

[Chris Whitten]

Well it could be all about price I suppose.
The C1000's are about $300 a pair, the Avenson's about $500 a pair.
A lot of people on audio forums have reported being blown away by the Avenson. Tape Op magazine said it was a 'remarkable' mic.
There are some great, cheap mics by T.H.E.
(mercenaryaudio.com), but I think they're more expensive.

[Mark Schlipper]

Sorry.....I've got to say I hate the C1000.

A lot of folks do.  A lot of folks hate the Oktavas too.   Mics are like instruments.  They are all to taste.  Im keen on my C1000s.   Maybe its cause they are older models (close to 10 years old), maybe not.   No idea.  Doesnt matter, the idea was just to illustrate the kind of mic Im talking about.   If price is the biggest factor, get the Oktava MK012s.   You can often score a pair for $100-150.    

As for pc vs standalone there are pros and cons to each.   In an ideal situation, the pc would be the way to go.   But to get more than two simultaneous inputs youve got to spend at least $1000 on the cheapest end.   Either for a multitrack interface with pres or for one without and a mixer.    If you can make that work, AND still afford mics, its the better way to go.    Much more flexable.

[dizz]

I guess I should add that -I only use my C1000s' for cymbals so its not like I have given them the good once over even, but for cymbals and with a decent EQ, I 'm satisfied.

They come with presense boost adapters as well as Hypercardioid adapters, they take a 9volt or phantom which is pretty cool.  They are a bit big, but they are cased in some solid metal tubing.  I probably don't have a golden ear for what you are hearing, but I have been unhappy with others' techniques for getting my cymbal sounds so much so that I break out my gear and hand them a line out.  /shrug

For the price, I feel like I did well buying them.  I got them for about 120 each on ebay.

[Chris Whitten]

I'm not partial to overly bright overheads.
I find the C1000's bright, as are the much more expensive 451's.
I'd rather use a cheap ribbon mic (Beyer?).
My favourite o/head mic is the KM84.....but then you're talking $$$

[Mark Schlipper]

I'm not partial to overly bright overheads.
I find the C1000's bright, as are the much more expensive 451's.
I'd rather use a cheap ribbon mic (Beyer?).
My favourite o/head mic is the KM84.....but then you're talking $$$

My C1000's are as bright as small diaphragm condensors are wont to be, but not overly so.   Again, could be the age.  I certainly wouldnt add a presence boost (which mine dont have an option for unlike the new ones).

Ribbons are phenominal, and Oktava makes a decent one for under $300.   But they are less versatile, so they dont make my "essential rig" list  But I do LOVE the ribbon mics.

[bonejoy]

i gotta say guys....to the layman listening to your music...if they like your music, they won't care how it was recorded or what mics were used!  Maybe this has developed into a 'who knows most about mics' issue.....

Funkadrummer....what's the recording for exactly?

[Funkadrummer]

i gotta say guys....to the layman listening to your music...if they like your music, they won't care how it was recorded or what mics were used!  Maybe this has developed into a 'who knows most about mics' issue.....

Funkadrummer....what's the recording for exactly?

Something to sell at shows, sell to my friends, use it as a demo to ect.

[Drummz]

Yeah this thread has gone all over the place  

I use two AKG C1000's for overheads and really like the job they do. It was a good buy for my situation and have no regrets purchasing them. I also use two AKG C430's, one for my hihats and one for the ride cymbal. They are nice and compact and really sound good for that application.

But like everything else, someone likes something better. That is why there are so many manufacturers and so many models of everything that is related to musician's gear. Freedom of choice, thank goodness we have those options or we'd all go nuts!

[Chris Whitten]

i gotta say guys....to the layman listening to your music...if they like your music, they won't care how it was recorded or what mics were used!  Maybe this has developed into a 'who knows most about mics' issue.....

Issue? I think you taking it way too seriously.
In any case, we're not living in a communist state where one person says something and the rest of us have to agree.
As far as the rest of the debate is concerned, I'm yet to meet a musician who is happy to settle for sub par equipment. Likewise, anyone who sells a CD to friends or at gigs wants the listener to be blown away by it.
Bearing all that in mind, it becomes a cost vs benefit decision. 563 (and others) believe the C1000 is great for the price. That's a valid point. Fine!
Once I post a question about 'What's a great drum kit', get the response 'Pearl Export' followed by everyone else saying 'That'll do' I'll be looking for another drum forum.