Can Triplets in 4/4 be Regarded as 12th Notes?

[AdamBlevins]

One of my schoolmates in college was a guy named Naoki Ishikawa.  (http://www.utc.edu/Administration/UniversityRelations/newsreleases/homenews/asahi.html
Or Google it...if you're into drum corps and you don't know who this guy is...shame on you!   >:(  )

He wrote a couple of drumline shows for us at UTC and he used to do a weird egg-beaterish thing.  He would notate a sixteenth note diddle followed by a 16th note triplet and another 16th note diddle...it all fits (mathematically, or whatever) into on beat.   ll  rrr  ll

Not really an eggbeater, but inspired by them.  That's when I came up with my idea about eggbeaters.  Because Naoki is a machine...and machines are rarely wrong  ;D

--adam--

P.S.  A little off topic, but oh well...so is this whole thread...

[JamesC]

One of my schoolmates in college was a guy named Naoki Ishikawa.  (http://www.utc.edu/Administration/UniversityRelations/newsreleases/homenews/asahi.html
Or Google it...if you're into drum corps and you don't know who this guy is...shame on you!   >:(  )

I had a couple encounters with him:

1) I watched him compete in snare individuals in 96 (happened to be the winning solo - awesome!)

2) I met him over the phone in 97 when he went to march the drumline I was marching in in 96 - he was super cool.

The guy was obviously good - marched two radically different top knotch drumline - Cavaliers and Blue Devils.  I don't know if I know of anyone else who's played snare at both of those corps.  Heck, I wonder if he was the first!

[JamesC]

I just re-read Ryan's post.  I did not realize upon first reading that his comments were directed at Mr. A.

I thought it was typical crazy Ryan off-the-wall craziness.

Wow  ???

[Jon E]

I know Ryan can be a little "out there" sometimes.  I've certainly had a couple of minor run-ins with him. Nothing too major.

What's odd to me in this case is that Ryan posed a (what I feel is a) genuine question about what something should be properly called musically.  There was some informative, and at times, rather spirited banter amongst several Cafe members, then all of the sudden Ryan reappears with guns blazing at Mr. A (with most of the rest of us close behind I feel).

I sure didn't think he'd react that way to this thread.  I know meanings can be lost or misunderstood sometimes in a TYPED medium like message boards, but WOW!!  I'm stymied.

Ryan, I can only hope you don't react to others this same way in the spoken world.  (yes, I know he's banned and can't read this).  Sorry if I ticked you off this time 'round.  It wasn't MY intention.

[Mark Schlipper]

As a huge proponent of questioning the norm and reinventing the wheel I've found this whole thing interesting.   I've always thought the idea of a triplet was a little odd, wondered why the individual components didn't have their own denomination.   But this ...

Plus, the 12th-note concept only works in 4/4. What if you're playing in 4/4, and suddenly the time signature changes to 3/4. By your logic, you'd then be playing "ninth notes." There's no need for that - they're simply 8th-note triplets, regardless of the time signature.

... sums it up for me really well.   And the mathematician in me says "duh".

[Louis Russell]

This thread reinforces my opinion of the Drummer Cafe.  This is truly a place I want to be.  There is an unbelievable amount of experience, education, and down-home knowledge available for people who want to learn and share ideas.  

Sometimes I may get a little complacent.  A thread such as this makes me remember all the bad forums I frequented in the past.   I discovered the Café by accident.   I was surfing the net one day years ago checking out drum stuff.  Imagine that!  I came across the drum ring on one web page and that led me to the Drummer Cafe shortly after its conception.  This was the first and only truly professional drum forum I have found.  

I would like to commend Bart for his vision of the Café and thank him for his hard work in making this a wonderful experience for so many.  Bart has given many people a second chance and lots of time to allow them to break the bad habits many other forums allow and foster.  I also want to thank Mr. A for his sometimes thankless job as moderator.  I know Keith takes a lot of shots solely because he is a moderator.  I have admired his attitude many times for not retaliating at the insults.  I consider Bart and Keith true professionals and gentlemen and thank them both for having the patience of Job.  

[Roger Beverage]

Thank you Bart.  It was the verbal diahrrea of the original poster of this thread that drove me out of the now defunct forum I used to frequent.  I hesitated PM'ing you regarding his past behavior as I know you have the patience of Job and needed to see this kind of thing happen before you could rightfully act.

I had a feeling of dread when he first signed onto this forum, I expressed my concern to another prominent member of this group, who stated he would keep an eye on him, which he did.

Everyone is entitled to redeem himself but this dude just keeps digging himself in deeper. He had his chances. Maybe someday he'll grow up, but I doubt it.

Roger

[Jon E]

I'll give a dollar to anyone who can draw me a single 12th note!  :)

[Dave Heim]

I'll give a dollar to anyone who can draw me a single 12th note!  :)

A single one?  Sorry.  No can do.  We're not allowed to break up a set.  :)

[Larry Lawless]

OK, so this thread has gone nowhere fast, sorry I missed it, I'm at a Music Educators convention in San Antonio (how come all the exciting stuff happens when I'm away), but wanted to throw out my thoughts.

The note value system is not based just in 4/4 time. The different note values get their names from their relative time to a whole note regardless of time signature.

Think of it this way:

Let's suppose, just suppose, completely arbitrarily, that a whole note lasts for 10 seconds.

A half note would then last for 5 seconds, or half as long,
a quarter note would last for 2.5 seconds, or one fourth as long,
an eighth note would last for 1.25 seconds, or one eighth as long,
and so on.

One of my favorite lines of questioning for my students goes like this:

"How many eighth notes equal a quarter note in 4/4 time?"

ANSWER - 2

"How many eighth notes equal a quarter note in 6/8 time?"

ANSWER - 2

"How many eighth notes equal a quarter note in 28 million/463 thousandth time?"

ANSWER - 2

That said, once when I was much younger, I lay awake one night devising a system for a 3rd note. I had it all worked out, everything was perfectly logical, even came up with a "new" notation system. Then I fell asleep.

The next morning when I awoke (the morning blues hung over me..... sorry, I digress), I had forgotten everything. Now I realize there is already a perfectly good way to notate the value of a 3rd note that everybody can recognize without needing the Lawless Dictionary to MY System of Music Notation: half note triplets.

[felix]

That's too bad.  I might have been a little hard on him.  But there is a way to disagree with anyone here and not resort to name calling.  I know I've had to throw in the glove a few times myself.  Subsequently,  I for one couldn't even play an eggbeater and would very much like to see how they are notated.  I remember looking at them at once but didn't recall any 12th notes.

Youthful people love to try an be revolutionary and I think that's great.  Maybe Ryan will be inspired in his anger... and I hope he finds some peace eventually thru his future drumming endeavors.

[nudrum]

I'm thinking about starting a 12th note program.

[Louis Russell]

I'm thinking about starting a 12th note program.

But first you have to admit that you have a problem!   ;D

[JamesC]

The note value system is not based just in 4/4 time. The different note values get their names from their relative time to a whole note regardless of time signature.

Yes, they could be considered relative to the whole note, but the whole note is defined in 4/4 time.

I never really thought about it before this thread, but we very much live in a 4/4-time based society!  All other time signatures are forced to "conform to THE MAN" - the 4/4 bar!  All notation symbols are children of the 4/4 bar.  Although they may live in other time signatures, they're based on the 4/4 bar.  Trippy.

If we didn't do this, however, every time you came to a new bar of music, your brain would have to re-calibrate all note values relative to the time signature, and that would be nuts.

It's sort of like money.  We have nickels, dimes, quarters, dollars, etc.  Quarters don't mean, "one quarter of the price", they mean, "one quarter of the defined dollar".  Whether you're buying a house (could be considered a huge time signature), or a ball of gum (sort of like a very small time signature), a quarter is still a quarter.

[Scott]

JamesC, AdamBlevins or any other of you drum corp guys--do you happen to have any written notation for an eggbeater or would you happen to have a link to a site that perhaps has an eggbeater notated?  

A google search turned up several discussion related items, but not any actual notation.  

Interesting stuff....  

[Tony]

I may be a bit off base here, but it seems to me the one thing missing in everyones dissection of the "12th note" is note value.  I find with drummers, we tend to lose sight of the value of a note, ie.  a whole not.  If there's no tie indicating a roll, we strike a drum on beat 1 and count 4 beats for the whole note.  Whereas a horn player will sustain the note for it's entire indicated value.  

With regards to eighth note triplets, it's hard to consider them anything else because of the value of each individual note.  But I prefer to just stick with what's worked for several hundred years.

As for Ryan, can't say I'm surprised.  He was building to that point for a while.  One day, I'm sure he'll mature and be a fine person.

[AdamBlevins]

http://www.drumlines.org/upload/192685-128HybridRudimentBook.pdf

Contains egg-beaters as well as 127 other drum corps "hybrid" rudiments.  They are (IMO) completely useless for the most part outside of drum corps.

When was the last time you saw Steve Gadd play a ratamaswiss or Gregg Bissonette play a Shirley Murphy...?

--adam--

[Bart Elliott]

JamesC, AdamBlevins or any other of you drum corp guys--do you happen to have any written notation for an eggbeater or would you happen to have a link to a site that perhaps has an eggbeater notated?  

I've got a notation that I can post ... if I can find it.
If and when I do find it, I'll post it ... unless someone beats me to it.

[Jon E]

So I am wrong when I count those eggbeaters to be in 7/16?

Maybe I should have asked this in a new thread?

[felix]

I see them now from Adam's link.

Sextuplets and 32nd groupings.  I have a lick similar to that that's alot more rock 'n roll.  I should learn to play it the correct way.

Nah.

Edit:  I see what you are saying JonE.  The core guys probably "squeeze" the last measure and not change the pulse- but really, I'm guessing on that.  Cool though.