Acoustic Drums For Worship

[mid life crisis]

Thanks.  We have shields, but I think we want to do without them if we can.  I suppose we can always try them if we need to.

I think we're going with the Catalina Birch kit.....should be getting it later this week.

[Bart Elliott]

Yeah, but I still think it depends on the stage and the room. Our stage is WIIIIIDE, so that's the direction the sound goes. You sit in the third row of our church, and rods on the snare tend to disappear.

LOL ... well, don't use the rods!

I suggested using the multi-rods because he's in a small church of 300 people. If that is how many people it can seat ... its small. Use the rods if you are too loud. If you can play with sticks, play with sticks. If you must use the rods, meaning no sticks ever, and think you can't play rimshots, you would be wrong. That's all I'm saying.

[Mark Counts]

Thanks.  We have shields, but I think we want to do without them if we can.  I suppose we can always try them if we need to.

I think we're going with the Catalina Birch kit.....should be getting it later this week.

Are you mic'ing up the kick drum and the snare? Are you going totally acoustic?  If you are mic'ing, the rods will work in a small or large church.
The sticks in your 300 person church will probably be to much IMHO.
If you mic, brushes might even be enough.  We would love to rock the house in our 2000 seat church but we have 70 and 80 year olds just like we have teenagers.  We have to love them and respect them too.  We do a mix of old and new and try not to blow the old folks out of the church and still give the youth what they need to keep coming. It is a very delicate balance and it is very hard to please everyone all the time but we have to try.  Good luck with it and God Bless!
                           Nutty

[mid life crisis]

We are largely a young church - our only form of worship since its founding has been contemporary, so compared to most churches we are used to louder music than some, I would imagine.  Even the older members are used to it.  I suppose we can mic if we have to, but we didn't plan to initially. 

It's an experiment & I imagine we'll have to make adjustments as we see how it works.

[Chris Whitten]

Well I wouldn't.
Micing drums, when volume is already potentially an issue, would be a weird idea.

[Mark Counts]

Well I wouldn't.
Micing drums, when volume is already potentially an issue, would be a weird idea.

Hey Chris,
I agree that if sticks are to loud anyway it would be the wrong way to go but if he wanted to use Rods would you mic it for a more even presence in the room and give the sound person more control over what is heard out front? In my church the whole stage is either mic'ed or DI out.  Everything goes through the PA but the stage is big and the church is fairly large too. In this situation with Rods, would you still think that micing is weird?
By the way, this may really blow you away but I am micing my drums in a room that is 400 square ft.  Volume isn't really an issue in my home studio,( lot's of padding) but with the band we use a sound meter to get balance, live recordings sound better if I mic the kick a little bit.  Yesterday I brought up the snare a bit because I am finding out that the Earthtone head is a little softer than what I have been using.
                     Nutty

[Chris Whitten]

I don't know. There is a lot of value in not micing IMO.
When I was young I performed in a large, noisey dance hall.
We churned out Top40 material to a couple of thousand punters a night. I was unmiked.
You talk about balance and clarity, but those can be best achieved by the drummer themself IMO.
Until the early 70's, many touring drummers were unmiked, or maybe a couple of mics around the kit.
John Bonham was recorded with 4 mics around the kit. Not specifically pointed at any drum in particular. It was more an overall 'picture' of the drum set. He played in such a way that the drums were clear and appropriately balanced for the genre of music, hard rock.
If I were playing with rods in a smallish room, I certainly wouldn't mic the snare. You still have a lot of dynamic control by playing the snare louder or softer.
The first thing i would mic on a kit is the bass drum by the way.
But, it seems many of these worship spaces are not designed for music (acoustically). So it's not the musicians fault there are issues.
However, I slightly despair at the widespread use of e-kits, PA systems and perspex screens around the drummer.
Many times, these approaches take the place of a group of musicians ability to play at an appropriate volume (for the space) and blend themselves as a unit (for example, drums not drowning out the bass, backing band not drowning out vocals).
Sorry for my rant.

[Mark Counts]

I don't know. There is a lot of value in not micing IMO.
When I was young I performed in a large, noisey dance hall.
We churned out Top40 material to a couple of thousand punters a night. I was unmiked.
You talk about balance and clarity, but those can be best achieved by the drummer themself IMO.
Until the early 70's, many touring drummers were unmiked, or maybe a couple of mics around the kit.
John Bonham was recorded with 4 mics around the kit. Not specifically pointed at any drum in particular. It was more an overall 'picture' of the drum set. He played in such a way that the drums were clear and appropriately balanced for the genre of music, hard rock.
If I were playing with rods in a smallish room, I certainly wouldn't mic the snare. You still have a lot of dynamic control by playing the snare louder or softer.
The first thing i would mic on a kit is the bass drum by the way.
But, it seems many of these worship spaces are not designed for music (acoustically). So it's not the musicians fault there are issues.
However, I slightly despair at the widespread use of e-kits, PA systems and perspex screens around the drummer.
Many times, these approaches take the place of a group of musicians ability to play at an appropriate volume (for the space) and blend themselves as a unit (for example, drums not drowning out the bass, backing band not drowning out vocals).
Sorry for my rant.

No need to say you are sorry for ranting.  I would love to take what you just said verbatum to my Music director.  He is a talented guy and has gone of tour with Jazz singers and played with more names then I will ever get to play music with but you are right about trusting your ears.  The experience in my praise band is unbelievable other than the volenteer sound operators.  When I get to use my equipment in church we only mic the kick drum and snare with two over heads but it is a big church. 
Thank you for your insight in these issues.
                       Nutty

[Chris Whitten]

Thank you for your insight in these issues.

Hey, I'm not saying I'm right. I don't play worship music.
I have played all manner of different sized rooms however.

[Mark Counts]

Hey, I'm not saying I'm right. I don't play worship music.
I have played all manner of different sized rooms however.

No, I am saying your right.  It is all about the size of the room and what it is made of and what is going to absorb or bounce your sound.  It is also about your ears and what you do as a player to make it all work.  I think your response was very well said and I can add it to my list of info that I digest on here.  I have heard some great advice on this thread and felt that I said my piece. Threads like this one really teach us all about different obsticals to over come and the best way to go about it.
By getting some real input from people with simular situations. I think
we can all still learn things from each other. I find my self learning things
about my playing from people that don't even play music sometimes.
I think this forum is full of much knowlege...
                         Nutty

[mid life crisis]

I would echo nutty's statement - there is an incredible amount of knowledge and perspective on this board.  Thanks to everyone who shared their ideas, as I know this info will help me.

[Todd Norris]

Without getting too off topic, I wonder why so many Churches just can't deal with acoustic drums?  Why is playing at Church different from playing in any other venue?  If the room is small, you account for it.  If it's big you play to that.  I play in a poorly designed room (acoustically) that holds about 250 - 275 people.  We used e-drums for years assuming that acoustics just wouldn't work in there.  I finally convinced everyone to let me try acoustics for a month and we never went back.  I use sticks, no mics and no shields.  No problem. 

:)

Back to our regularly scheduled thread...

[Chris Whitten]

You're probably bang on topic.
The original post was about trying to persuade a church to accept acoustic drums over electronic ones.
I prefer acoustic drums myself, but I sometimes feel an old fogey about it.

[David Crigger]

I don't think these rooms are poorly designed acoustically, but rather are not designed with pop music in mind. Most churches (and the lion share of concert halls) are designed for un-reinforced speech and classical music.

And yet in our ever louder world, most clergyman are now using mics in order to be louder in rooms that were clearly not designed for that function. Many of the best concert halls that are used for basically un-miked classical orchestra performance and alternately for pop music concerts make use of very expensive variable acoustic treatments, because no one room every really does both well.

But I'm with Chris (and then some) - putting a drummer behind a screen, in order to play really soft, often times with blasticks as poor stick substitution (I love Blasticks - as Blasticks...not as sticks) in order to then mic him to give the front of house mixer more "control" is sheer folly IMO.  And falls into the sadly too common modern sound engineer fantasy of having the "whole mix" come from the speakers.  The only way to do that is just play a CD with no one on the stage; or turn the front of house mix up so loud that no one can then hear sound coming off the stage. This negates the whole concept of "sound reinforcement" - where you start with faders off...listen to the stage...and add what is missing from the mix (blending them in with the stage sound).

Now there's a rant... :-)

David

[MVanDoren1]

Without getting too off topic, I wonder why so many Churches just can't deal with acoustic drums?  Why is playing at Church different from playing in any other venue?  If the room is small, you account for it.  If it's big you play to that.  I play in a poorly designed room (acoustically) that holds about 250 - 275 people.  We used e-drums for years assuming that acoustics just wouldn't work in there.  I finally convinced everyone to let me try acoustics for a month and we never went back.  I use sticks, no mics and no shields.  No problem. 

:)

Back to our regularly scheduled thread...

My brother-in-law is the GM of a show in Branson Mo.  He used to hold the same position in a different show with a rather large stage/seating area.  Larger than many of the shows in Branson.  They went with edrums simply because the owner THOUGHT that acoustic drums would be too loud.  This is FAR from true especially if you are employing a decent drummer with control in a wide range of volumes and styles.  Playing at a church may not be different as others have stated earlier and in different threads- the musician does not always have the last say in what is played and why.  Hopefully, Mid-life-crisis, you'll have the opportunity to prove that acoustics can be used tastefully and though not always PLEASE every age group- at least be able to successfully support the various styles of music your church uses in its worship services. 

[Matt Self (Gaddabout)]

I don't think these rooms are poorly designed acoustically, but rather are not designed with pop music in mind. Most churches (and the lion share of concert halls) are designed for un-reinforced speech and classical music.

Our church wasn't designed for anything. We didn't put a single acoustic thought into the building. When we had blue prints drawn up, all we wanted to know was if we could maximize space. And we did. A few years later we had an engineer come in and check the room. His suggestion for fixing our sound problems was to build a new church from scratch!

[Louis Russell]

This negates the whole concept of "sound reinforcement"

People not knowing the difference between sound reinforcement and sound amplification have been a pet peeve of mine for years.

Our church wasn't designed for anything. We didn't put a single acoustic thought into the building.

It is the same with our Church.  Our sanctuary has been expanded 3 times with no thought whatsoever in dealing with the acoustics.

[mid life crisis]

I think we'll be ok.  I have buy in on trying this from our pastor and worship leader.  What I didn't mention before now is that we have three praise teams - we each play every third week - we rehearse Thursday and then play Friday night worship and two services on Sunday.  All three of us have some experience playing in different environments and believe we can maintain a focus on dynamics that will make this work.

I was able to use the board's responses yesterday as I spoke with my counterparts to get the point across about our path to success.  You guys have been most helpful & I appreciate it very much.

[amoacristo]

I have a pretty descent amount of experience playing drums and guitar in church. From my experience, the biggest problem is with drummers themselves. A lot of them have little or no concern for their volume control. They want to bash away because it feels better. The reality is they haven't taken the time to learn how to play properly, meaning being able to play at many different volumes besides being able to play beats/fills/etc. The reality, IMO, is that there are a lot of people that "play" drums but there aren't that many drummers. There is a big difference.

[Todd Norris]

I don't think these rooms are poorly designed acoustically, but rather are not designed with pop music in mind. Most churches (and the lion share of concert halls) are designed for un-reinforced speech and classical music.

And yet in our ever louder world, most clergyman are now using mics in order to be louder in rooms that were clearly not designed for that function. Many of the best concert halls that are used for basically un-miked classical orchestra performance and alternately for pop music concerts make use of very expensive variable acoustic treatments, because no one room every really does both well.

But I'm with Chris (and then some) - putting a drummer behind a screen, in order to play really soft, often times with blasticks as poor stick substitution (I love Blasticks - as Blasticks...not as sticks) in order to then mic him to give the front of house mixer more "control" is sheer folly IMO.  And falls into the sadly too common modern sound engineer fantasy of having the "whole mix" come from the speakers.  The only way to do that is just play a CD with no one on the stage; or turn the front of house mix up so loud that no one can then hear sound coming off the stage. This negates the whole concept of "sound reinforcement" - where you start with faders off...listen to the stage...and add what is missing from the mix (blending them in with the stage sound).

Now there's a rant... :-)

David

That's bang-on David.  And it's good to hear from you again!