Topic: Might Start a War - but that's not the intent

[Han Steevo]

You want everyone to look at you and be stunned by your brilliance?  1st - get brilliant, 2nd - follow Bozzio or Donati and be the ball.  3rd - Don't join a band, because you're gonna screw it up of everyone. You want to work?  Shut up.  Take your moments, when given the space.  Smile.  Have fun.  Paint a picture.    

Right, because all Virgil does is overplay and ruin every band situation he plays in  

If you truly believe that all Virgil does is try to show off while playing, stop listening to On the Virg and Planet X and listen to Freakhouse.

[Mister Acrolite]

And, one more thing: I would bet money that any of the top drummers in any genre and most jazz drummers, period, could lay down a simple rock beat that sounds just as good as the other drummers being discussed.

How much you want to bet?

Han, listening to a jazz guy try to play rock is every bit as painful as listening to a heavy metal guy try to play bebop. And I'm not some rocker who hates jazzers - I was a professional jazz drummer long before I also became a professional rock drummer.

Steve Smith is one of the few who can TRULY do both. His drumming in the 70's and 80's defined what "arena rock" was, but he also played with Steps Ahead. That's a serious accomplishment.

Vinnie can, too, but he has a hard time hiding his slickness. Gregg Bissonette can do it. There are others, no doubt about it. But most jazz drummers can't, plain and simple. I'd rather eat glass (to quote Drumgun) than listen to Weckl try to play a heavy rock groove. It's just not his voice, so to speak. And there is NOTHING wrong with that. He can play rock solid time - no question. But he doesn't rock, at least not in my opinion.

I take music very seriously. And I feel that the ability to "rock" is every bit as intangible (and yet essential) as the ability to "swing" is for a jazz drummer. I don't know - I guess we hear things differently.

But I'll stand by my assertion that the ability to play notes is NOT the same as the ability to play a style. That's something I'll bet on.  

[SteveG]

I wish I saw this thread sooner. Tico and I played the Jersey cover circuit together (although he did start playing the circuit several years before I did). He was in two very prominent bands in the circuit, Phantom's Opera and T. Roth and Another Pretty Face. He also studied with Joe Morello for a while. Let me tell you, the man can play. You WILL NOT hear over-the-top let me fit as many notes as possible in every measure chops in Bon Jovi because Jon's songs do not call for it and Tico is wise enough to realize that. Bermuda mentions Jim Keltner who is my favorite rock/pop drummer. Like Tico, Jim Keltner always plays what is appropriate for the song.

You cannot judge Tico's technical ability by what you hear in Bon Jovi. What you can judge is Tico's ability to know what is appropriate to play and what not to play which is more than we can say for many drummers out there on the circuit.  Those are the guys who usually get the gigs, not the chop/shredders.

[Ratamatatt]

If you can't hear it, I don't know whether you should curse your handicap or count it a blessing.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHhahahahahahahahaaaaaa!!!!

Now that is funny.    Hey, I could say I can hear it but can't play it, and you'd never know the difference.  LOL.

Ratamatatt

[Ratamatatt]

You want everyone to look at you and be stunned by your brilliance?  1st - get brilliant, 2nd - follow Bozzio or Donati and be the ball.  3rd - Don't join a band, because you're gonna screw it up of everyone. You want to work?  Shut up.  Take your moments, when given the space.  Smile.  Have fun.  Paint a picture.    

Right, because all Virgil does is overplay and ruin every band situation he plays in  

If you truly believe that all Virgil does is try to show off while playing, stop listening to On the Virg and Planet X and listen to Freakhouse.

That's what's so cool about swingin to standards out of the Real Book.  You always get to trade fours.    Of course it's a bad sign if you don't hear that last bass note trail off at the end of the bass solo.    LOL.

Ratamatatt

[Ratamatatt]

And, one more thing: I would bet money that any of the top drummers in any genre and most jazz drummers, period, could lay down a simple rock beat that sounds just as good as the other drummers being discussed.

How much you want to bet?

Han, listening to a jazz guy try to play rock is every bit as painful as listening to a heavy metal guy try to play bebop. And I'm not some rocker who hates jazzers - I was a professional jazz drummer long before I also became a professional rock drummer.

Steve Smith is one of the few who can TRULY do both. His drumming in the 70's and 80's defined what "arena rock" was, but he also played with Steps Ahead. That's a serious accomplishment.

Vinnie can, too, but he has a hard time hiding his slickness. Gregg Bissonette can do it. There are others, no doubt about it. But most jazz drummers can't, plain and simple. I'd rather eat glass (to quote Drumgun) than listen to Weckl try to play a heavy rock groove. It's just not his voice, so to speak. And there is NOTHING wrong with that. He can play rock solid time - no question. But he doesn't rock, at least not in my opinion.

I take music very seriously. And I feel that the ability to "rock" is every bit as intangible (and yet essential) as the ability to "swing" is for a jazz drummer. I don't know - I guess we hear things differently.

But I'll stand by my assertion that the ability to play notes is NOT the same as the ability to play a style. That's something I'll bet on.  

To my ear Gadd is the only funk/rock drummer I've heard that really feels swing time.  Then, maybe you don't consider him to be a real "rocker."

Ratamatatt

[Phil Bowman]

To Han Steevo...

My point with the reference to Virgil and Bozzio was NOT implying that uber-chops is all they can do.  If you look at the context, it is refering to the fact that if one wants to "be the ball", which is my Caddyshack term for being the main guy, the focus of the show, the big cheeze, the guy everyone's looking at, etc., then one be a solo drum artist or start/get involved with a group that really has you on display.

I've met both of these drummers and have great respect for each.  They will both tell you exactly what I have, that if being "the man" is what you want, you'll have to build the project from the ground up around yourself or kill Carter Beauford.  95% of working drummers HAVE  to be able to play a groove of comfort.  Usually that groove involves a "2" and a "4".

I too love Keltner.  Anyone who doesn't is probably a monkey.  Just thought I'd toss that in...

Kevin

[DrumGun]

Sorry, I should've explained that the last post was me, DrumGun, over at  Philips_hed's house on his puter.  Sorry if it was confusing to Mr. Solo, uh, I mean Steevo...

Kevin

[Tkitna]

And, one more thing: I would bet money that any of the top drummers in any genre and most jazz drummers, period, could lay down a simple rock beat that sounds just as good as the other drummers being discussed

I wish I could remember the exact event, I cant, but I remember Phil Collins saying that he played with Ozzy,in some event for the queen or something due to charity or whatever, for a song or two and he had to play "Paranoid" by Sabbath. Phil said it was one of the hardest things he ever had to do. That song sounds pretty easy and i've played it a few times. IMO its not very hard (I know I probably dont sound great playing it but i'm making a point) but it was for Phil. I wonder why? LOL!

[Tony]

Granted, most people with elementary drum skills can play a straight 1/8 note rock beat.  But can they play with conviction, feel and personality?  Hell no.  If you listen to a lot of prog rock a la Portnoy or Donati, it is going to come across in your playing, no matter what the riff.  It seems to me that what takes time to understand for younger players, regardless of their instrument, is the level of emotion and personality that goes into crafting a part for a song.  I don't mean emotion like anger or angst.  I mean conveying the emotion of the song and the intention of the songwriter.  Your own personality is going to come into the way you play a beat.  That's why 50 people can audition for the drum chair in a band like Tonic, but Kevin is going to get the gig.  It has nothing to do with playing the beat that is written, it is how it comes out of you.  Look at big band charts. They are, for the most part, simple phrases with accented horn hits.  So by some people's logic, any idiot with rudimentary reading skills should play it as well as say, Gregg Bissonette or Phil Collins?  Right, if you believe that, I have some land in South Florida you might be interested in

As for jazzers playing rock, etc.  All I'll say is this:  Buddy Rich.  The greatest drummer in history and he sounded like a dork playing a rock beat.

[sidereal]

And, one more thing: I would bet money that any of the top drummers in any genre and most jazz drummers, period, could lay down a simple rock beat that sounds just as good as the other drummers being discussed.

Steve Smith is one of the few who can TRULY do both. His drumming in the 70's and 80's defined what "arena rock" was, but he also played with Steps Ahead. That's a serious accomplishment.

Interesting to me is that the incident that literally drove Steve into therapy was his personal struggles with meter (whether his own or based on someone else's opinion) that led to his firing from Journey. I can't recall him ever getting fired from a jazz project, or having any insecurity about playing the genre.

By the way, any jazz-schooled chops master who thinks he can lay down a slow slow blues song, show dynamics and restraint, help the singer sound like an angel, do it all with personality over the course of 10 minutes, and end the song on the exact same tempo as it began without the use of a metronome is welcome to try and take my gig away from me.

[jordihs]

What about, it's a matter of taste? You mentioned Mike Portnoy as opposed to Tico Torres for being 'chop oriented'. I have listened to Dream Theater and I noticed something very interesting about them: they are mostly popular among other musicians, but 'non-specialiced' listeners seem to think they only make noise. On the other hand, bon Jovi is extremely popular and although I find them cheesy and commercial I see good, proffessional musicians working there. So, if you listen to the musicians you might prefer Dream Theater, but if you listen to the music you might find out (as I did) that these instrument-mag-cover-guy made up band plays junk music made up of all the most intrincate technical artifacts they can find. Technically impressive, yet lacking in soul (IMHO). So, if you listen to drums only Portnoy stands out by far (I agree to that). But listening to music, which is what most of the audience does, well, DT is much harder to swallow than BJ.
As far as I know, Tico Torres worked as a studio drummer before entering BJ, which means to me he's got enaugh musicianship to be respected. Anyway, if you don't like his playing there's lots of Dream Theater CDs in the store and you won't be force to buy Bon Jovi CDs along. Or if you think you are a better player than him apply for his job. And if you think that Mike Portnoy would be a better drummer for Bon Jovi, then I think you are very wrong  
My final thought would be that hearing a chop every other bar is even more boring than hearing no chops at all. At least no chops at all let you hear what the music is trying to say.
Anyway, I'm not censoring you for saying you dislike a famous player, look at how many answers you got. It is interesting to see what people think about the playing of mainstream musicians. And to support this thread I'll say (if that's not evident enaugh yet) that I (musically) hate Dream Theater for making music that is (almost) for musicians only. But Of course I respect people that like DT, just disagree with them  

[nudrum]

I couldn't agree more with Stoneyhand!!

[benleb]

John Bonham and Ian Paice - IMHO two examples of the perfect combo of groove/feel vs chops.

[felix]

With Ian I agree with you.  I love him.

John Bonham, as great as he was, had a really strange groove- now you can flame me, but we have talked about this before and his groove is just, well so Bonham.
Don't get me wrong, but J.B.'s groove lets just say was inimitable.

[Carn]

Gee, hmm, what shall i say to this. Ah wait! I got it!

All the bands above are popular, famous, succesfull, whatever, because the musicians in the band are making music that sounds 'good'. Take one of the musicians out, then it wont sound the same anymore, even if you put a technically better musician in the same place.

To make good music you need to be a good musician in your field of music, and the fun thing about human beings is that no one is alike, so no matter what kind of chop-monster you are, you probably wont be able to make the music sound the same way as someone else did.

[sidereal]

I'll never forgive Carl Palmer for ruining ELP's "Lucky Man." That is such an almost great song, but it's completely ruined and rendered almost unlistenable by Carl's excessive and just plain bad drumming.

Great drummer... wrong drummer for the song.

[Mister Acrolite]

I'll never forgive Carl Palmer for ruining ELP's "Lucky Man." That is such an almost great song, but it's completely ruined and rendered almost unlistenable by Carl's excessive and just plain bad drumming.

Great drummer... wrong drummer for the song.

Yeah - he's one of those guys that I worshipped as a kid, but when I go back and listen now, I cringe. Great player, amazing chops, but his taste and groove seem a bit questionable in retrospect.