Topic: Where's the next big thing?

[James Walker]

Here we go agreeing to disagree then... I think that is exactly what Tommy Lee created, a new way to play the drums.  What I think he brought to the drumming world was to be more of a full entertainer than just a drummer with crazy chops/feel.  I haven't see any vids of these old gray haired legends spinning around in full cages doing a drum solo.  That sure sounds "new" to me and has been continually copied by many drummers since.

Two words:  Lionel Hampton.

Most people remember him as a vibraphonist, but he was also a drummer (and a pretty good one, at that), and he was as much about putting on a great show - including visuals (admittedly, no cage) - as he was about making great music.  Not bad for an old dude...

[drumwild]

I haven't see any vids of these old gray haired legends spinning around in full cages doing a drum solo.

The first drummer to play spinning upside-down was Buddy Rich. I think it was back in 1972 on a TV show called "I've Got A Secret".

The kit was on a platform, raised by a forklift from behind a curtain. It was really jerky, but he got spinning! This is on one of his videos, although I can't remember the name of it.

The Tommy Lee spinning cage is a nice gimmick (I saw it live), and I like Joey Jordison's (Slipknot) vertical rotating drum riser. That might be more of a performance or live show innovation than a drumming innovation.

Anyone remember Cornelis Johannes (Cesar) Zuiderwijk from Golden Earring? In 1983 he had invented a "drum jacket" that he would put on and play during his drum solo. Awesome.

[clt2msb]

But they have not created NEW ways to play the drums, which are then adopted by countless other drummers. That's what this post is about, a point I seem to be failing at trying to communicate.

I get your point, and I agree totally.  I think that a lot of it has to do with the music being ladled out to the masses these days.  Yes, Bozzio is amazing, and people outside of drumming will recognize him from Missing Persons and perhaps even Zappa, but his solo stuff isn't as well known (outside drumworld) and you're not going to hear ostinatos like his played in Top 40 music anytime soon, imo.  Gadd and Copeland I agree with wholeheartedly, as their approach made a significant impact on music for the masses, and I'd bet at least 90% of drummers playing music that is "ladled to the masses" would list them as influences.  

Maybe music has to change in order for someone else to come along that changes drumming.  Otherwise, where's the practical application?  We can't all play clubs w/ 30 piece drum kits, or banks of electronics in order to "be like Mike" (so to speak).  Nor can we all approach our local symphony orchestras and ask to play "Suite for 5-Piece Drumset and Orchestra in D Minor".  

The only changes I've seen have been ergonomic, with the teachings of Freddie Gruber to Weckl, Steve Smith, Neil Peart, etc.  They've completely changed the way they setup and approach the kit since studying w/ him.  But it hasn't musically changed the landscape of drumming.  

You're looking for a Charlie Parker in a world of Kenny G's!  Talk about a needle in the proverbial haystack.

Great discussion!

[dwcampbell1]

And I recommend you delve into the history of this instrument and those who play it - it is clear from your posts that you have room to grow in that area (as we all do).

Mr. A, I think you're getting way too upset about this topic.  I just read all the postings start to finish, and I can say that everybody gets the topic.  You made your point somewhere at the top of page 2.

I think after 60+ posts of candidates you don't agree with, it seems pretty certain that we (or you, in particular) are just going to have to wait to discover the newest pioneer for whom you're looking.

Also, Is there some unseen amount of drumming history knowledge that you're using as a litmus test for posters to this thread?  People are going to start taking their toys and going home.

...objectively,
Dave

[felix]

We sorta bounce things around here and expand upon them... to know Mr A is to know he isn't condescending, nor does he have that kind of attitude.  This is a tough topic to tackle with no real answer, but the stimuli it provides is a benefit in itself.

[Chris Whitten]

I agree with Felix......but I'll take it further.
I haven't found Mr A to be unreasonable, in fact I've been gritting my teeth at some of the suggestions of innovators. Some people's idea of a contribution is to list their favourite drummers for example.
I have to say unfortunately that it's a sad reflection on drummers, forums, the internet or whatever, that a thread about innovators has boiled down to stick twirling and spinning risers.

[Mister Acrolite]

Mr. A, I think you're getting way too upset about this topic.  I just read all the postings start to finish, and I can say that everybody gets the topic.  You made your point somewhere at the top of page 2.

I think after 60+ posts of candidates you don't agree with, it seems pretty certain that we (or you, in particular) are just going to have to wait to discover the newest pioneer for whom you're looking.

I disagree that everbody "gets" the topic, but I blame that on my inability to express it well, and on the obvious differences in A) what we each consider to be essential elements of our drumming vocabulary, and B) where we think those elements came from.

But hey, that's the fun of these discussions - you learn how other people see things.

Also, Is there some unseen amount of drumming history knowledge that you're using as a litmus test for posters to this thread?  People are going to start taking their toys and going home.

It's not my intention to condescend nor offend. However, I have a hard time not responding to statements that I know are made in ignorance.

But no, there's no DAT (Drummer's Aptitude Test) for grading this stuff.    All that is required is common sense and an awareness of one's own limitations. For example, I'll not leap into a discussion of Baby Dodds' right hand technique - I lack the knowledge to do so. And I also can't tell you which KISS albums Peter Criss played on, and which ones Eric Carr and Eric Singer did (not to mention which ones Anton Fig ghost-drummed on).

But as an avid observer of the last 35 years of drumset playing, I'd hope my insights and observations about the trends I've witnessed might be helpful to some. Apparently not to others.

Please keep your toys here, and keep playing.    That's what the Cafe is for. I started this thread, so I've participated in it with a somewhat proprietary approach. But the Cafe is wide open for all to explore, whether your playing was shaped more by Terry Bozzio or Rikki Rockett.  

[drumwild]

I've thought about those mad drummers I know locally. These folks could be future innovators, or the next big thing:

 http://www.thedrummerswebsite.com]Jeff Lemke : I have witnessed him playing some incredible stuff. When I ask him to slow it down (and he does), I still listen in amazement. He is an incredible talent, whether it's odd times or 4/4.

http://www.nocide.com/photos/pages/DSCN0812.htm]Kenny Borril : Drummer for  http://www.nocide.com]NOCIDE . I have often referred to him as "The Keith Moon of our Time." His drumming, combined with his showmanship, is quite the spectacle.

These are two drummers I know who may very well become......

... THE NEXT... BIG.... THING (ing ing ing)

DUNT - DA - DUHHHHH!!!!

[Chris Whitten]

Keith Moon! Now there was an innovator.
One long fill, with maybe the odd bit of time thrown in.
Steve Jansen (Japan) was another innovator. In the 80's he tossed away his hi hats and played all his grooves between the toms, snare and bass drum. This was in a top 10 band as well, not prog rock or fusion. Oh yeah, all his cymbals were China's too.
I don't think anyone's made the case for any serious innovators in the last 10 years.

[Bart Elliott]

I'll jump in again ... because not everyone is getting the topic.

Mentioning people that are dead, people that gave innovative ideas decades ago, etc., well ... that's not the topic. It's about NEW individuals.

And I have to agree with Mr. A about needing to know some drumming history in order to argue any points. Even as James Walker mentioned, Lionel Hampton was standing on his drums (ie. floor tom) before anyone else ... and Gene Krupa was "Mr. Showboat" and probably was the first one to "put on a show".

I believe the thread is to discuss who we think is a recent or upcoming  innovator who is establishing something new ... something that others will hold on to, modeling their own playing after, in ways never done before.

P.S. I know upset, and Mr. A is not upset; he's just having to clarify again and again ... which gets frustrating for him. I can say this from experience.  

[Mark Schlipper]

Steve Jansen (Japan) was another innovator. In the 80's he tossed away his hi hats and played all his grooves between the toms, snare and bass drum. This was in a top 10 band as well, not prog rock or fusion. Oh yeah, all his cymbals were China's too.

One of my fave's.   And indeed an innovator and incredibly unique voice on the instrument.  But unfortunately he had little or no impact on drumming as a whole.  

Granted this could be my American perspective.   Japan (the band) was not at all successfull in the states, but was quite so in Europe and Asia.

Which brings up another point.   Id like to think that the "drumming community" is global.   But is it?   Did those players who made HUGE impacts on drumming primarily make them in the States or were they global?    Are there folks changing the face of drumming in Eastern Europe but who are unrecognized here?   etc?

[Chris Whitten]

I'll jump in again ... because not everyone is getting the topic.
Mentioning people that are dead, people that gave innovative ideas decades ago, etc., well ... that's not the topic. It's about NEW individuals.

I get the topic.
I said what I said to try and mention some positive individuals (Moon and Jansen) as an antidote to Tommy Lee and Stanton Moore being named this weeks winners in the innovator poll.
563,
I think your absolutely right about Steve Jansen.
A few people have done the no hi-hat thing (Manu Katche, Jansen, Marotta and other drummers with Peter Gabriel), but it's never really caught on.
As far as worldwide impact goes. I think an innovative drummer will have most impact at 'western music's' epicentre (which is the UK and USA in my opinion).
There's been some very interesting European drummers, japanese too, but it's often hard for them to find recognition until they work with UK or American acts.
There are probably extremely innovative drummers in Africa and Sth America right now, but who knows what they are up to? They certainly aren't registering on my radar.

[Mister Acrolite]

As far as worldwide impact goes. I think an innovative drummer will have most impact at 'western music's' epicentre (which is the UK and USA in my opinion).
There's been some very interesting European drummers, japanese too, but it's often hard for them to find recognition until they work with UK or American acts.
There are probably extremely innovative drummers in Africa and Sth America right now, but who knows what they are up to? They certainly aren't registering on my radar.

Canada tends to fall off the radar, too. There are some GREAT drummers there who are barely known in the US.

[Scott]

I think some people are misinterpreting my post, perhaps because of the title.

I'm not talking about what the PUBLIC perceives as the "next big thing," like Britney Spears or Blink 182 or whatever.

And I'm not just talking about drummers who have amazing chops, and identifiable styles. They keep emerging, and I think more of them are emerging than ever.

I'm talking about the tiny handful of drummers who literally come along and change how we think about drumming and its role in music. Guys without whom we would lack some key parts of our own musical vocabulary.

First off, this is a GREAT thread.  VERY insightful and very well conducted.  I don't think anyone is being condescending or acting off-base.  

Anyway, in addition to the quote above, Mr. A also stated in his first post:

"But I'm still puzzled why I haven't heard a new drummer who's totally knocked me on my ear in over a decade. Are they out there, and I'm just oblivious?"

What I tried to do in my post on the first page was address the topic as I understood it.  I was wondering if I understood it correctly in the first place and I was also wondering if anyone agreed or disagreed with my comments/opinions.  

To summarize my post on pg. 1, the answer to Mr. A's question, in my opinion, was "No--there are not any drummers that I can think of who fit the criteria you have presented."  There haven't been anymore to add to the "tiny handful" in addition to the ones Mr. A listed in his initial post.

Next, I stated the reasons why I felt the answer to the question was "No".  The reasoning I'm ultimately getting at is not only do I feel we have not seen any players as such since the aforementioned ones from Mr. A's list, but we will never seen any such again.  The reasons for that is because of the ever-evolving and rapidly changing environment and mediums to which music and drumming are presented to the universe (see my post on pg. 1).

Someone pointed out that in order to have these type of "impact" players again, it would have to be a completely different level or type of impact based on our current musical mediums and environment.  I agree with that and would say that that confirms an opinion stating that we'll never see "impact" players again like we have up to this point.

Thoughts?  Comments?  Mr. A?  I was just wondering if anyone else shared this direction of thinking...

[MrDrums]

There's been some very interesting European drummers, japanese too, but it's often hard for them to find recognition until they work with UK or American acts.
There are probably extremely innovative drummers in Africa and Sth America right now, but who knows what they are up to? They certainly aren't registering on my radar.

That's very true! You should all check out Alex Frazão, a great Portuguese drummer... he's got an unbelievable feel when it comes to mixing jazz with latin stuff!

[Kelly Minnis]

To get back to this after Mr. Acrolite redefined what it was he was looking for.  Dave Grohl would probably be the only one of the initial five I listed that has had any impact not only on drumming but the scope of music and what came after it.  Before Grohl a drummer in hard rock was measured by how many kick drums he could fit on his riser and how high he could tease his hair, regardless of his badass chops.  Grohl took a 4-piece kit and just beat them hard and evenly with a songwriter's knack for inventing to perfect part to make the song continuously explode dynamically.  He's the one.

But I was only half-kidding when I mentioned the Akai sampler.  The drums on most of the music that makes it to top 40 pop radio, hard rock radio and country really aren't designed to stand out as a unique voice in the music.  No one with the throaty drum sound of Bonham or the splashes of Manu and Stewart.  The stamp now comes from the sound of the producer and what they are able to coax from their samplers, especially in R&B and pop music.  Timbaland has his own unique sound, Dr. Dre, the Neptunes, Tricky/Massive Attack, etc.  It is the timbre of the '60s recordings fed back and tweaked through Pro Tools, it's the stutter-step of the 808 with percussive vocals.  Rhythmically the '90s has replaced the drummer in the studio for the most part.  There are still great drummers recording killer parts and tones, and certainly the live drummer is ubiquitous in nearly every musical setting.  But the easy access to the drum loop and the ability to cut them up has made virtually ANYONE with the technical know-how able to make interesting beats and tones.  Heck, the aforementioned Johnny Rabby and ?uestlove have made careers out of emulating the Emulator.  Drum and bass afterall is only Bernard Purdie loops sped-up and edited.  Not that this is necessarily a bad thing.  But that's where I hear the true rhythmic innovations of the past ten-plus years.  

PS: Favorite non hihat drummers have to be Grant Hart and Jerry Marotta.

[newbeat]

Has anyone mentioned John Bonham? I'm not really big on drumming history but the first time I started listening to led zepplin, I instantly started hearing so many things in the drumming (and songwriting as a whole) that you hear today. Realizing they were back in the 60's/70's, I could instantly see how much influence John Bonham has had on drummers over the years. IMO he was a rock drumming pioneer and much of the contemporary "rock drumming vocabulary" can be traced back to him and a few other innovators.

Anyway, for modern drummers, I definitely think Horacio "El Negro" Hernandez is making a new uber-latin style with the left foot clave patterns with afro-cuban rhythms in latin-jazz music. Crazy skills, amazing independence in that guy, he's pushing the limits into new territory. That's the only example I can think of right now...

[Mister Acrolite]

Has anyone mentioned John Bonham?

Bonham is absolutely one of the biggies, and left an indelible stamp on music. That kinda went without saying.  

But this thread focuses on who's NEXT. In other words, will anybody else ever have as much of an influence on music as a drummer like Bonham? - THAT is the question.

We shall see...

[Tkitna]

Anyone remember Cornelis Johannes (Cesar) Zuiderwijk from Golden Earring? In 1983 he had invented a "drum jacket" that he would put on and play during his drum solo. Awesome.

I saw Joey Kramer and Mic Fleetwood do drum solos, live in concert, with those drum jackets on and I thought it was the most retarded thing that i've ever seen. Sorry, YMMV. (I like Zuiderwijk's stuff alot though)

I cant see into the future but if i were to guess about an idea or innovation that might hold in the drumming field, it would be the combination of acoustic drums and electronics that would help the handicapped (or non-handicapped) "ala" Rick Allen. I can imagine a patent or something on that line coming out of ideas when Def Leppard finally hangs it up (they should have,,,,,,nevermind). He could devote himself to produce kits that could help the less fortunate play again and it could actually etch his name down as one of the great innovators. Again, I cant see into the future and thats what makes this thread so tuff. Where's Ms.Cleo when you need her?

[Bob Pettit]

JOHN HENRY BONHAM!!!!
Aaah, yeah ok, he's been dead a long time.... And Mitch Mitchel, Bill Ward, and Tommy Aldridge haven't done a lot lately. Most of us have worked up this type of vamp over the last twenty years.

Byron from Pennywise has inspired me lately. I believe this punk style foot work will become part of every drummer's vocabularly ... even drummers that hardly use both feet will eventually get hep to it.

Also this hip hop thing, bass & drum ... we all gotta get that down right?